Security System Start-up

[LKMiller]

Hi All
Been lurking for a while, great site lots of help. Anyway, I am in the process of setting up my HT/HA set-up via CQC (new to all this so still learning) and have laid out a phased approach to this with adding a security panel down line (9-12 months) once I get HT working. Well, there has been a recent rash of Theft/break-ins/vandalism in our neighbor hood with the latest two nights ago 2 houses down and so my wife gave me orders to get the security up first. Knowing this was coming down the road I haven't given it much attention or thought on how to proceed other than some initial research on the Elk M1G and CQC.

So my first place to start is the wiring for door/window sensors, it just so happens the house (20 years old) has been prewired for a security panel with most of the doors/windows sensors installed. They are currently home run to a hallway coat closet left open hanging down the wall. It looks like 30 or so single wires (Wrapped into pairs), a couple of network cables, I would assume cat 5? and a standard phone cable.

Questions
1. How do I tell if these are usable for the Elk and what they actually go to?

2. This point is not the central point for my HT/HA closet, can I install the M1G in the my central closet with an input expander going to the security termination closet?

3. EOL resistors, do I need them and if so how can I add them to the existing wiring, or determine if they are there? ( can I pull out the existing contact in the door frame and add ?)

4. Any ideas to where the cat 5 type cables are going?

5. Any thing else you can think of to get me started down this road?

Thanks in advance
Kevin

 

[mustangcoupe]

Welcome to CT....

Questions/Answers
1. How do I tell if these are usable for the Elk and what they actually go to?

As long as they dont have the wrong value EOL'S built in they should be able to be used.... there is a couple ways of finding out where they go.... Do you have a multi meter if not you might want to get one... 1.if so you could connect the meter to one pair of wires and open and close each door until you get a change (open or shorted... you will need to know this when you set up the zones) or 2. purchase a wire tracer/toner&receiver and connect it to one pair at a time(conect this only after verifing there is no voltage on the wires!) and going to each contact see if the receiver "tones"

2. This point is not the central point for my HT/HA closet, can I install the M1G in the my central closet with an input expander going to the security termination closet?

YES

3. EOL resistors, do I need them and if so how can I add them to the existing wiring, or determine if they are there? ( can I pull out the existing contact in the door frame and add ?)

EOL's have been discussed many times around here you dont need them but some people feel you should use them. But if you do decide to use them the elk only works with ...thinking.....2.2K ohms I beleive .

4. Any ideas to where the cat 5 type cables are going?

not a clue.........do yo have any ethernet jacks in any rooms? maybe more contacts any motion sensors wired with this by prev home owner......

 

[LKMiller]

As long as they dont have the wrong value EOL'S built in they should be able to be used.... there is a couple ways of finding out where they go.... Do you have a multi meter if not you might want to get one... 1.if so you could connect the meter to one pair of wires and open and close each door until you get a change (open or shorted... you will need to know this when you set up the zones) or 2. purchase a wire tracer/toner&receiver and connect it to one pair at a time(conect this only after verifing there is no voltage on the wires!) and going to each contact see if the receiver "tones"

No on the multimeter, but need to get one, I assumed this was the right way to go. what do I look for as far as readings, can i assume they are good if get some specific reading, open vs closed? What about the toner you suggest any recommendations? will this also allow me to determine if resistors are already in place?

EOL's have been discussed many times around here you dont need them but some people feel you should use them. But if you do decide to use them the elk only works with ...thinking.....2.2K ohms I beleive .

so I am out of luck if there are no EOL resitors on the pair?

not a clue.........do yo have any ethernet jacks in any rooms? maybe more contacts any motion sensors wired with this by prev home owner......
[/quote]

no, only the wires I have ran myself for my computer network. ??? the house is on a concrete slab with attic , I could try and trace them down in the attic space but was hoping for some suggestions to look for an endpoint. Crawling around in the attic thru insulation is not desirable.



thanks again, all help appreciated
Kevin

 

[CollinR]

Questions
1. How do I tell if these are usable for the Elk and what they actually go to?

Get a variety pack of resistors 1K ohm through however many wire pairs you have (8k ohm?)

Go from door to door, window to window, motion to motion and twist a resistor between their leads. Do this with the resistor based on the zone you will use later, 1K ohm = Zone 1 (front door), 2K ohm = Zone 2 (back door) and so on until all sensors have resistors on them. Go back the closet and test the resistence of each pair, now you'll know the 1K ohm pair is front door on and on.

Opens (infinate ohms) mean you probably haven't found all the wires in a series, or a wire has been cut.

Shorts mean you have a sensor in place and functional, or the wires have been shorted.

If you come up with a value like 4500 ohms you have found either a parallel or series of sensors, move on and come back to those last. Through deductive reasoning you'll figure it out. Otherwise post the resistence and the resistors available.

2. This point is not the central point for my HT/HA closet, can I install the M1G in the my central closet with an input expander going to the security termination closet?

It's quite possible whoever you need to identify whats what first.

3. EOL resistors, do I need them and if so how can I add them to the existing wiring, or determine if they are there? ( can I pull out the existing contact in the door frame and add ?)

Yes you need them, they come with the panel and take seconds to install.

You'll immedately know if EOLs are hidden somewhere during #2.

4. Any ideas to where the cat 5 type cables are going?

It's most likely either the phone system or the keypad bus. Optionally it could be additional sensors. Sometimes I'll run Cat5 into a detached garage to cover 2 doors and a motion or to trip the overhead opener. You gotta be careful though Cat5 is some tiny conductors if you need to power a motion.

5. Any thing else you can think of to get me started down this road?

Might research the home some, there might be records somewhere.

 

[DeLicious]

I must concur with your wife. Get the security system up and running first. I think you can find my reasoning behind this on the appropriate forums.

As for what sensors are useable with elk and where they go, maybe you could just try plugging them into the elk and see what's activated as you go around the house and open doors and windows... the whole, you never know until you try philosophy.

 

[sic0048]

Not sure if you have already bought your equipment or not. But AutomatedOutlet now has a great deal on a CQC/Elk package.

 

[Steve]

3. EOL resistors, do I need them and if so how can I add them to the existing wiring, or determine if they are there? ( can I pull out the existing contact in the door frame and add ?)

Yes you need them, they come with the panel and take seconds to install.

You'll immedately know if EOLs are hidden somewhere during #2.

Don't mean to disagree, but thats simply not true with the M1. Most older alarm panels required EOLs and many lazy installers just put them in the panel to satisfy it. That's how my house was done as well. The M1 allows you to configure each zone several ways including just plain normally closed WITHOUT EOLs. Do search around here for lots of explanations about them. Imho if you were wiring from scratch and could easily put one in, I probably would, but since your contacts are already in and wired, I would not bother, chances are you could break something that is already connected and fine. The only value an EOL will add is a super sophistacated thief who can somehow get to and short your wire (that guy is gonna get in anyway!) or to tell you if you ever short a wire on your own, like during construction/remodel projects (in that case, simply test your system after doing anything that may potentially damage a wire).

As for tracing the wires, the method of using resistors is certainly interesting, but I much more go for the multimeter/toner approach. Again, a big reason is to not disturb the wiring thats already in place by the windows/doors. You will likely have to do some recaulking or drywall to play with those wires. I would be willing to bet you do not have EOLs in place. Invest in a fairly decent toner and meter and you should be set. I like meters with an audible short function where it will beep on a short - makes it easy to ID the closed contacts. I would count the number of contacts, pir's, glass breaks, smokes, etc that may be installed and compare that to how many wires you have in the closet. You may have a homerun for each or they could be grouped in zones. Logically zones would be multiple windows in a room kind of thing. But counting the wires should give you an idea of how much is grouped.

 

[brotsten]

As for tracing the wires, the method of using resistors is certainly interesting, but I much more go for the multimeter/toner approach.

I agree with Steve on both counts. By far the easiest way to determine where your existing wires run is with an inductive tone set. You can pick them up at Home Depot for ~$75 and I'm sure cheaper online.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Brian

 

[LKMiller]

Thanks to all - valuable information. The toner suggestion has me confused, do i put a tone on the wire leads in the closet and then go to the sensors with equipment and listen for a tone, or the other way around?

The only pieces I have been able to see visibly is door and window sensors, I assume no glass breaks or motion detectors installed (but not for sure, do not see anything visible), unless they are hidden behind the drywall. I also assume the cat 5 typed cables are for the keypads , don't know how to find these either unless I start to tear up the drywall.

I have found a couple of door sensors that have not been terminated ( wires leads only in a hole thru the door frame). what do you recommend there, add an EOL or not. What is a good sensor to use for the Elk?

Thanks again

Kevin

 

[brotsten]

The toner suggestion has me confused, do i put a tone on the wire leads in the closet and then go to the sensors with equipment and listen for a tone, or the other way around?

It doesn't matter which end you start on. If you are looking for a paticular sensor/switch and you can access it to put the tone generator on, you can start with the tone generator there and use the inductive pickup to determine which wire in the closet is the coorsponding end. If you have more wires in the closet than you can find throughout the house, put the tone generator on the wires in the closet and trace them through the house.

I also assume the cat 5 typed cables are for the keypads , don't know how to find these either unless I start to tear up the drywall.

That what the toner is for, it will work through the walls. The toner can be hooked up to one or two wires (as long as the two wires are not shorted). If you are using it with twisted pair like Cat5, you would hook it up to two wires from different pairs, ie: orange and blue.

I have found a couple of door sensors that have not been terminated ( wires leads only in a hole thru the door frame). what do you recommend there, add an EOL or not.

Since you are post construction, I wouldn't bother, but ELK includes them with the purchase. If they daisy-chained any of the switches, you would only use one on the last switch.

Brian

 

[Steve]

I would leave the existing contacts undisturbed so usually that means you will have to tone from the closet out. But if you have access to the wire at the contact end you can do that. Don't skimp on the toner! Get a good one - the cheap ones don't have as good a tone and it will make things tougher. Count the wires in the closet and the contacts you can see. If you have alot more wires in the closet than contacts then you have other stuff hidden or somewhere where you don't see a contact. For the door you will use a press fit switch like this. I would not use EOLs if the others don't have one. Make your life simple - easier to remember your zone programming if they are all the same - UNLESS there is a zone that is much more likely to somehow get a shorted wire (unlikely).

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Speaking of shorts, you may want to browse the Security System Install "How-To" and check your wiring for leakage and continuity if it's old/unknown. I would also check out the contacts (open/close) with the ohm meter to see what is actually happening once you get the wiring determined.

 

[LKMiller]

Thanks all, I went and checked at HD and they had the following toner
701K - Kit
will this work?

Thanks again
Kevin

 

[brotsten]

I went and checked at HD and they had the following toner
701K - Kit

That's the one I use. I have no complaints, but it's my only data point.

My first thought was, "They have tone generators at the Harley store?" Must be the nicer weather we are getting...

Brian