Self-install Elk & Security, or get a pro?

[IVB]

Thanks for all the help guys, and i'll pore over that how-to guide.

ONe question: This is currently in my daughter's bedroom. I'm sure I'll be adding tons of stuff to it over time (i.e, lighting very quickly, other stuff eventually), and I've already got an equipment closet about 50' away. There's already a ton of wires running into that panel, it will be hard for me to run many more as that closet is really meant for kids clothes.

Should I
A) leave everything as-is, and put the M1 in the current location (easy now, could be hard later to run more wires into that room), run the connector to the equipment closet, or
move it now to equipment closet. May need to extend wire, which i hope is as easy as getting another run and tying the two together.

I don't currently understand how many more wires i'd run into the panel. If it's just 1-5, then I may stick with A, if I could be running tons of stuff there, I'll go with B. I'm a heck of a scope-creep guy who adds on to HA/HT as a thoroughly enjoyable hobby, so basically picture that everything I can do with an M1 I will do.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

...plus they even look like 1K ohm which is what the Elk uses.

Actually, the Elk uses 2200 Ohms EOL resistors.

Hehe, my mistake. I glanced over my bench and saw a bunch of 1K resistors there (Elk is on that bench also). (My SECU16I digital in from Applied Digital uses 1K ohm resistors).

I have to clean this room up one of these days!

I'll edit the post.

 

[FrankMc]

Thanks for all the help guys, and i'll pore over that how-to guide.

ONe question: This is currently in my daughter's bedroom. I'm sure I'll be adding tons of stuff to it over time (i.e, lighting very quickly, other stuff eventually), and I've already got an equipment closet about 50' away. There's already a ton of wires running into that panel, it will be hard for me to run many more as that closet is really meant for kids clothes.

Should I
A) leave everything as-is, and put the M1 in the current location (easy now, could be hard later to run more wires into that room), run the connector to the equipment closet, or
move it now to equipment closet. May need to extend wire, which i hope is as easy as getting another run and tying the two together.

I don't currently understand how many more wires i'd run into the panel. If it's just 1-5, then I may stick with A, if I could be running tons of stuff there, I'll go with B. I'm a heck of a scope-creep guy who adds on to HA/HT as a thoroughly enjoyable hobby, so basically picture that everything I can do with an M1 I will do.

Hi Ivb


Personally i would move the alarm panel to your other closet ......What i would do is look and determine which cables may be too short to re route and run new ones from those sensors to the new panel location "before" removing the old panel.......

I would do the walk test and identication i mentioned in my previous post as well before disconnecting.....

You really should firstly play with the M1 on the bench and set it up so your happy then when your ready ...start the change over....I would suggest do the changeover on a saturday morning gives you more time if you have any issues...


HTH
Frank

 

[WayneW]

Note sure I have enough details to give a true opinion, but I will play devils advocate to Frank and offer you a choice.

I would consider installing the M1 in that closet where the old panel is, since all the wiring is there.

All of the expansion modules (input, outputs, serials, keypads, etc) use the Elk 4 wire bus. If you connect at least one leg of 4conductor wire (8 is better, cat5 is fine) from the current bedroom closet to your new equipment closet, this would allow you to add any future additional equipment & wiring in your preferred location. Just add another 14" Elk cabinet (or something larger) in your equipment closet.

And if you run a second leg of 4 or more conductors, you can effectively bring the serial output of the Elk to your new preferred location also. That is where you would hook up your PC for programming or installer the Ethernet expander module.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I just thought of something, perhaps slightly off topic here and meant more for Elk (David). We seem to be getting more of these types of posts where one wants to replace an existing (older) security system with the Elk M1. A problem may exist if the EOL's are truly placed in the end of the line and if they were a value that wouldn't be compatible with the Elk (with its present firmware). Sure you could change them out, but what a pain.

Would it be possible for future firmware revisions of the Elk for the user to "select" the value of EOL resistor used? This may help out future users who have this problem.

 

[electron]

I was told many moons ago that this is something they have on their list, it's one of the first questions I had as well once I started dealing with EOL resistors.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I was told many moons ago that this is something they have on their list, it's one of the first questions I had as well once I started dealing with EOL resistors.

Should have known. I can never get "one up" on you! <_<

 

[IVB]

read through that HowTo post, absorbed probably 20% of it. I'm not worried (yet), my style is to read things relatively quickly, go away for 1-2 days, go back and read again, cycle, repeat.

I'm feeling better about DIY'ing the physical stuff, now it's the programming & choosing the correct wire for the correct zone/tab/?? that I need to get my mind around. Of course, I'm probably feeling a little too brave as I just intalled a flushmount aprilaire remote sensor and ran some in-wall wiring for my plasma today.

Just add another 14" Elk cabinet (or something larger) in your equipment closet.

And if you run a second leg of 4 or more conductors, you can effectively bring the serial output of the Elk to your new preferred location also. That is where you would hook up your PC for programming or installer the Ethernet expander module.

So this is a VERY interesting thought, let me test my understanding of it:
I can put one cabinet in the current location, another in my equipment closet, and simply link them via some 8 conductor cables? Kind of like a client/server relationship - the current location can be where all the security stuff gets housed, other location is for all else?

In that case, does it really matter where I put the "master" Elk M1? I could put that in the equipment closet, leave it almost empty to start except for whatever I need to hook into CQC, put a 2nd one in the current location, and link them. What would I buy? Is this considered 2 M1's? Is there just a "cabinet" available somewhere?

 

[WayneW]

In that case, does it really matter where I put the "master" Elk M1? I could put that in the equipment closet, leave it almost empty to start except for whatever I need to hook into CQC, put a 2nd one in the current location, and link them. What would I buy? Is this considered 2 M1's? Is there just a "cabinet" available somewhere?

Theoretically, it doesn't matter where you put the master M1 cabinet. I assumed the existing bedroom due to the assumed power, phone, siren and any other "oddball" connections. Power is easy to move. Phone is probably not THAT hard, but a RJ31X exclusion jack is not a "regular" jack, so research first (it has to be ahead of all your other phone connections). The siren should be fairly easy to move.

If you start by putting the M1 in the new equipment closet, then you will need at least one XIN 16 zone expander for the old bedroom location. If you were planning on less than 16 zones, then this increases your cost by $70 or so. If you were planning over 16 zones, then it doesn't add anything. Depending upon your keypad count & wiring, you may want a retrofit wiring hub (from Elk) in the bedroom cabinet, otherwise you probably only need a single XIN card. The XIN gets its power over the 4 wire Elk bus.

Yes, Elk sells empty 14" and 28" cabinets (called "cans" by the pros), along with Leviton and a bunch of others.

 

[signalman]

Not to confuse you, but I would not wire those as Normal Close...I could break into that place in a min as N/C... Hence the reason for resistors. Keep the resistors in the field as previously stated, but wire as N/O with reistor in the field and Panel programmed as such.

I have over 25 years experience in this.

 

[IVB]

Theoretically, it doesn't matter where you put the master M1 cabinet. I assumed the existing bedroom due to the assumed power, phone, siren and any other "oddball" connections. Power is easy to move. Phone is probably not THAT hard, but a RJ31X exclusion jack is not a "regular" jack, so research first (it has to be ahead of all your other phone connections). The siren should be fairly easy to move.

If you start by putting the M1 in the new equipment closet, then you will need at least one XIN 16 zone expander for the old bedroom location. If you were planning on less than 16 zones, then this increases your cost by $70 or so. If you were planning over 16 zones, then it doesn't add anything. Depending upon your keypad count & wiring, you may want a retrofit wiring hub (from Elk) in the bedroom cabinet, otherwise you probably only need a single XIN card. The XIN gets its power over the 4 wire Elk bus.

Yes, Elk sells empty 14" and 28" cabinets (called "cans" by the pros), along with Leviton and a bunch of others.

Wow, great advice there, thanks for the very detailed guidance on how to start thinking about this.

Also thanks to signalman for the N/C tips;it would truly suck if I spent all this $$, and the system was easily defeatable.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Also thanks to signalman for the N/C tips;it would truly suck if I spent all this $$, and the system was easily defeatable.

I certainly do not want to dispute anyone and am appreciative of all suggestions and comments, especially from experienced experts, but I believe your system would still be easily defeated unless you moved the location of the EOL resistors from your panel to the sensor end (which would probably mean reinstalling those sensors).

This is why I don't think they are worth it in residential situations. They do have some advantages (they would show if a wire was shorted for instance), so again this is just my (humble) opinion. I do admit though that I am NO expert on security systems with this opinion!!! :blink:

More details on EOL's are described in the Home Security System How-To as well.

 

[IVB]

Forgive the newbie question, but if the angst is over the location, how hard could it possibly be to move it from the beginning of the chain [panel] to the end of the chain [termination point]?

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Forgive the newbie question, but if the angst is over the location, how hard could it possibly be to move it from the beginning of the chain [panel] to the end of the chain [termination point]?

Mainly it depends if the drywall is already in place. In my case the drywall was in place and foam insulation "around" the window frames making it very difficult to deal with the wire lengths on the sensors themselves (let alone have to stuff a resistor in there).

 

[Spanky]

BSR, Ole Steelers Fan,

If you have a circuit with say 1000 ohm EOL resistors installed somewhere on the zone, you can put an additional resistor at the control to bring it upto the 2200 ohm resistance.

A 1000 ohm in series with an existing 1000 ohm will work fine on the M1.

The downside is that you can not have normally open switches on the zone. You hardly ever see any of those anymore. The only kind I recall is normally open under carpet matting.