Smoke Relay to Elk - Adding a single GE350CX

[RLSinOP]

I've read a number of posts about connecting Smokes that were installed by electricians during new-home construction to meet building code to an ELK M1 Gold panel.  I recently moved into a newly built home where Smoke's were installed per-code by our electrician.  The Smokes that were installed are FirstAlert brand, but I'm not sure what the model number is.  These Smokes are all powered/wired together.
 
For what it's worth, everything else with the panel is working perfectly - door/window sensors, motion detectors, thermostats, Keypads, speakers/sirens, AlarmRelay central monitoring, integration to an ISY994i for Insteon Lighting controls, etc., etc.
 
What I'd like to do is replace the existing FirstAlert smoke that's installed near my panel (Basement) with a GE350CX so that I can wire the relay to my ELK panel.  My rationale for replacing the Smoke near my panel versus simply adding the GE350CX is due to the fact that I currently have 12 Smokes installed and the GE350CX documentation states a limit of 12 devices.  I'm not sure if this is an issue in that 11 of them would be the FirstAlert's.
 
So, my questions are:
-  Can I replace one of the FirstAlert Smoke's with the GE350CX with no issue?
-  Do I wire the relay from the GE350CX directly into an available Zone 1-16 input?
 
Thanks in advance,
RLSinOP

 

[pete_c]

Here I have an HAI OPII panel wired up to a set of smokes.  I left the electrical contractor HV wired up smokes in place as they have their own autonomous conduit and HV wiring.  I didn't want to play with that. 
 
Instead I just added an LV set of zoned smokes (real PITA to wire up).  Kind of ceiling clutter now which is not too noticed and OK with the WAF.
 
You can do anything you want though. 
 
I would though read the local codes regarding residential smokes et al type stuff.  The codes are similiar and different depending on where you are at and stuff like that.  In FL there is an HV wired smoke in every room in the house minus the bathrooms.  In IL they are not in every room in the house and today not sure what the current codes dictate for a new build. 

 

[RLSinOP]

Thanks for the reply.  I certainly don't want to wire new smokes now that the construction is complete and certainly don't think I should have to do so.  I get what you're saying regarding code, but frankly, I don't really care.  If I get it working the way I want, and thoroughly test it to insure it's working properly in case of a smoke-related emergency, then I'm fine with that, not to mention that it will be a better solution with fire alarms being centrally monitored via ELK connectivity.
 
So, what I'm looking for is how to best get this done, i.e. with a single GE350CX working with the existing FirstAlert's.

 

[pete_c]

Yeah here post wired the LV smokes.  Easy on the second floor (via the attic) and basement but most difficult on the main floor.  I did concurrently though pull new cable when I repainted hallways and rooms cutting holes to fish wiring first; real pita though.
 
I like the fact that my smokes are centrally monitoried.
 
Found this on some DIY alarm forum relating to the GE350CX:
 
 

I have a new house with the standard 110v smokes that are wired  in tandem...I want to connect them to my DMPXT30 system.  I bought a GE 350CX which supports relay form A and  C.  My question is  how do I wire  the DMP XT30 with the 350CX smoke.
 
Use the two purple wires of the form A relay. Connect the two purple wires to the two wires from the alarm panel zone. Then tie the resistor from the alarm panel  across the two connections. That way when the detector goes of it shorts out the resistor and sets the alarm off.
 
Keep in mind this unit is supposed to be connected with like units on the same loop.

Also, it's a very grey area to connect this to an alarm panel, as you are not supposed to introduce LV system wiring into the same electrical box or enclosure without a partition or separation.
 

Thanks for the quick response and the warning...I have a  follow-up question.  The DMP documentation shows a 3.3k ohm EOL resistor is required...am I interpreting your post correctly that I would attach one violet wire and one end of the 3.3k ohm resistor to terminal 25 and the other violet wire and the other end of the 3.3k ohm  resistor to terminal 26, effectively using the resistor to jump across the "zone"?

 
You're going to end up with 3 wires under wire nuts for the unit.

A violet, one of your zone wires and one of the pigtail on the resistor (I want to say it's red on a DMP).

The resistor is installed at the device and not at the panel. You should only have wire under the terminals at the panel.

 

[apostolakisl]

The GE detector you are looking indeed has the proper relay on it to use an Elk zone.  You can pick your zone, but usually people use zone 16 for that.
 
The question is whether that GE detector can be co-mingled with the First Alert.  I am suspecting that the answer would be no, at least from a code standpoint, I doubt the devices are UL listed to be run together.  A quick check of first alert products comes up empty as far as them having one with a relay.
 
A "hack" would be to add an extra first alert unit with the "escape light" and use the voltage applied to the light to throw a relay.  Again this would likely violate the UL listed approved ways of installing the device.  A final way that would not violate the device would be to use a photo sensitive transistor applied over the light with an opaque light seal.
 
A sure fire way to stay in code would be to replace all of the units with GE units that are designed to work with 350CX.  There still may be some issues with that even depending on your local fire department and codes regarding having this hooked up to a monitored panel.

 

[ano]

This is always a topic that comes up and is talked about forever.  I will add to what others here have said, its not a good idea.
 
It may seem like building codes are old and outdated, but they are really better than people realize.  When you REALLY understand them, they make perfect sense.
 
There are many reasons to say no to this, but I will give you one.  Did you know that those wired smokes First Alert wired smokes were ionization type?  That is because ionization smokes react very fast to fires, but they can also cause false alarm from burnt toast.  No big deal, right, you burn the toast and they all go off.  Nothing harmed because this toast didn't call the fire department.  It varies, and there are MANY exceptions with building codes, but 120V battery backed up smokes required to meet code are almost always ionization type. They react to fires fast to wake people in the building.
 
Now, dig out that GE350CX. Wait, this isn't an ionization detector at all. Its a photoelectric smoke.  Hmm... different.  Photoelectric smokes respond typically slower to smoke, but they have fewer false alarms.  Many times the smoke detectors connected to a monitored alarm are photoelectric.  In fact some locals require it so the fire truck is not dispatched every time you burn toast. 
 
So you may think good, this is a photoelectric sensor, perfect for connecting to a monitored panel.  We'll not really. Its a 120V alarm with a 9v backup battery.  So whip out those instructions that came with it and look at the end, where it says note. It says something to the effect that this is not to be connected to a monitored alarm.  Actually its designed to typically control a fire door or a ventilation fan, not for connecting to a monitored panel, i.e. ELK/HAI.
 
So long story short, use all these devices only for the purpose they were designed and UL listed for. Not doing so could void your fire insurance if they find out. So ALWAYS follow all the rules, ESPECIALLY when it comes to fire alarms. I know the wife hates duplicate smokes, but there are usually really good reasons for it. 

 

[Madcodger]

Bottom line: "Don't try this at home" - even your OWN home. Previous poster was genius in their excellent reply. Your logic of having a monitored system is great, and appropriate. So put in a second set of detectors, SEPARATE from the First Alerts. If you go with wirelss they're about $100 each, so you can put one or more on each level of your home (with an extra or two for, say, a laundry room) for about $500 total, and you're done for many years (and if you need more than that due to home size, $500 more to make it 10 isn't going to dent your wallet).

You'll have a few extra things on the ceiling, but if your spouse complains go into the safety lecture. Even if she rolls her eyes she'll appreciate it and you won't hear more. And you'll have:

A great, monitored system.
Fast resonse, hard wired, uncompromised detectors that might save your life (or your wife / kids)
Redundancy.
Peace of mind.
Insurance that will pay a claim if, heaven forbid, you ever need to make one.

I thought about going down the same path you're looking at a few years back and a few of these gents gave me the same lecture. And son of a gun, they were right...

 

[az1324]

I believe First Alert makes a relay module if there is concern about mixing brands.  There is the option of connecting the existing smokes to the alarm as an unreported zone which would not notify the fire department but could still generate sirens or other notifications.  That is still a step up from the current system of standalone smokes.

 

[apostolakisl]

I believe First Alert makes a relay module if there is concern about mixing brands.  There is the option of connecting the existing smokes to the alarm as an unreported zone which would not notify the fire department but could still generate sirens or other notifications.  That is still a step up from the current system of standalone smokes.

 
http://www.electricbargainstores.com/product-p/brk-rm4.htm
 
http://www.brkelectronics.com/product/RM4
 
It isn't even listed anywhere on the first alert website.  Found it buried in a brochure that is on the brk website.
 
And this probably varies by local, but if your system goes to central station, you avoid the issues with false alarm reporting to the fire dept.

 

[ano]

I believe First Alert makes a relay module if there is concern about mixing brands.  There is the option of connecting the existing smokes to the alarm as an unreported zone which would not notify the fire department but could still generate sirens or other notifications.  That is still a step up from the current system of standalone smokes.

 
When your reading those specs about the First Alert relay module, be sure to read this line:
> 120-volt AC-powered.
 
So in other words, no power, no relay. The battery backup for the smoke DOES NOT supply power to the relay.  This relay module is designed to control the same type of things the other smoke alarm with a relay is designed to control; fire doors or ventilation fans. If the power goes out, it really doesn't matter because these devices are 120V controlled as well.
 

It isn't even listed anywhere on the first alert website.  Found it buried in a brochure that is on the brk website.

I believe the reason for that the manufactures of this and the smokes with relay realized that people were using them in ways not intended so they are making them available only to those people that know how to use them.  I don't know this for a fact, but this does seem to be what is happening.

 

[az1324]

What it says is

The RM4 Relay will not operate auxiliary devices without
120V AC power. The Alarms provide the interconnect signal
to trigger the RM4 Relay – they do not supply any power to
drive the auxiliary device.

 
So the relay could be powered by a UPS near the panel and be fine, or one could just be satisfied that events where the power was out before the smoke detectors trigger would be missed.  Having some level of interconnect is still better than nothing.

 

[CDC]

In addition to not mixing manufacturers detectors, no one has mentioned that the relay on the 350 only triggers when that head goes into alarm.  If there is a fire is in another area of the house and the devices are all sounding, the relay and hence the security system would not be triggered until the fire reaches that device.  The relay module that is made for your detectors is the way to go.  Although we have had false alarms when the power restores after an outage, sometimes even a brief outage.  I agree with most posting that the addition of several system smokes in strategic locations to cover each floor or separate area of the house is the way to go.  Good luck.

 

[jpmargis]

In addition to not mixing manufacturers detectors, no one has mentioned that the relay on the 350 only triggers when that head goes into alarm.

 
True for the 320ACC/350CC.  The 320ACX/350CX relays operate from the tandem circuit and when smoke is detected.
 
The 320A/350, of course, do not have any relays.

 

[RLSinOP]

Thanks much to everyone for for all the information and sage advice, which I'll certainly take.  I'm sure I haven't thought about this enough and/or taken the time to read the applicable building/fire codes, but honestly this just seems like a problem begging for some kind of solution.  I understand the need to keep a professionally installed system (wired smokes) intact.  But like other home systems (HVAC, Elec Panels, etc.) the vendors have engineered ways to keep system integrity but also allow home owners to tie into those systems peripherally.  So consider this - a wired smoke that is professionally installed, that has some kind of accessible plug or wire block to notify (via a relay, even if it's external) a home security/automation system of an alarm state.  Surely the powers that be see value in a smoke alarm that has the potential to inform the fire department and/or emergency services that a fire has been discovered.  With all the online everything which is part of modern life in 2013, this almost seems like the rule rather than the exception.
 
Sorry for the rant, but I just don't get it.

 

[az1324]

I agree with you, but you also have to consider how even a very low incidence rate of false alarms could easily bring a fire department to its knees.  So it does need to be well thought out which is hard to do when you have a lot of moving pieces.
 
Insteon smoke bridge does exist though.  So there is some sign of progress.