smoke sensor from builder

v1rtu0s1ty

Senior Member
As you know, I failed to put 18/4 smoke wires since the builder started putting ceiling drywall in second floor. Is there a way to integrate the smoke detector that my builder installed with ELK? Or is there a product that I can use as a replacement that integrates well with ELK?
 
You might want to note which one they are installing, however since it is 18/4 it appears it is a 4 wire smoke detector. I believe the 'limitations' in the form of needing supported smokes only affect 2-wire smoke detectors.

If this is correct (I don't remember hearing about needing specific brands/models for 4-wire), then you should be fine. This assumes they are four wire smokes though, if they are the 110 ones then I dont think you can do anything. If they are two-wire then they need to be on the compatible list. It also isn't clear what the ones they put in connect to.

I went with two wire smokes from System Sensor, but after installing them, if I were to do it again I would have used 4-wire smokes. Just seems to make more sense after having gone through this.

This all does not concern you however. Back to your question, if all else fails and running the wires is a problem, there is always CADDX based wireless smokes that can integrate with the Elk assuming you add the wireless expander (which if you do, don't forget to order one of these:

http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...&cat=124&page=2

Hope this helps.
 
Some 110V Smoke Detectors do have N/O or N/C contacts on them. Also did you run a chase-way to your attic? You can always install some after you move in from the attic if you did. Either case not much you can do about it now untill after you move in and we see what you have to work with.
 
Yes, I'm assuming chase-way means PVC from attic to basement. If so, yes I have a 1.5" PVC.

However, I'm interested in the N/O or N/C contacts. If there is, will it be easy to integrate?
 
Mike said:
You might want to note which one they are installing, however since it is 18/4 it appears it is a 4 wire smoke detector. I believe the 'limitations' in the form of needing supported smokes only affect 2-wire smoke detectors.

If this is correct (I don't remember hearing about needing specific brands/models for 4-wire), then you should be fine. This assumes they are four wire smokes though, if they are the 110 ones then I dont think you can do anything. If they are two-wire then they need to be on the compatible list. It also isn't clear what the ones they put in connect to.

I went with two wire smokes from System Sensor, but after installing them, if I were to do it again I would have used 4-wire smokes. Just seems to make more sense after having gone through this.

This all does not concern you however. Back to your question, if all else fails and running the wires is a problem, there is always CADDX based wireless smokes that can integrate with the Elk assuming you add the wireless expander (which if you do, don't forget to order one of these:

http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...&cat=124&page=2

Hope this helps.
It's a 110 volt smoke sensor. They used probably a 14 gauge solid wire as my vision recalls it.

The 18/4 I mentioned was from me. I mentioned that I failed to install it.
 
v1rtu0s1ty said:
However, I'm interested in the N/O or N/C contacts. If there is, will it be easy to integrate?
Spanky will have to chime in here to confirm but what I am thinking we could do is if it is a N/O contact set the zone to fire and just run a 18/2 to the smoke and don't use power for that smoke detector because it is already getting power from the 110. And of course you would have to wire in a EOL.
 
Assuming that does work, out of curiosity, is there anything that would make that against code? I have not heard anything about using electrical wiring for low voltage purposes.
 
Mike said:
I went with two wire smokes from System Sensor, but after installing them, if I were to do it again I would have used 4-wire smokes. Just seems to make more sense after having gone through this.
Why, may I ask?
 
I had a similar situation where I was unable to run the low voltage wiring for my smokes in time during construction. The code for my area (pretty standard it seems) was 110 volt hard wired smokes, interconnected, so all went off when one went off. The wiring was 14/3 (hot/neutral/traveller).

What I did was had my electrician use GE(ESL) 350 series 110 smokes with 9v backup. This series has models both with and without a form A/form C relay. One of my smokes is located in the ceiling right next to my equipment room. For this smoke I used the 350cx, which has the relay, and was able to run a 22/2 the short distance above the ceiling to my Elk. The rest of the smokes were the models without the relay.

My smokes all sound if one goes off (as per code) and I also get a zone tripped on the Elk. The negative is that the Elk obviously is unable to determine which individual smoke went off.
 
rfdesq said:
Mike said:
I went with two wire smokes from System Sensor, but after installing them, if I were to do it again I would have used 4-wire smokes. Just seems to make more sense after having gone through this.
Why, may I ask?
A few things:

1. 2-wire smokes don't let you tell which one went off (with the Elk at least as I do not believe addressable smokes are supported).
2. Four wire smokes just take up more inputs. Inputs are fairly inexpensive and give you the benefit of knowing which one went off. After a few issues with false alarms (which I later suspected to be related to wire that was damaged when an electrician was in), knowing which one is a nice thing to have.
3. The downside is more wire (if running home run), but if I were to do it over I would put an input expander in the attic which hits most of my smokes given some high ceilings.
4. If putting multiple 2-wire smokes in on one zone (as must be done with the elk on zone 16) you are supposed to use a reversing relay to make them all sound if one goes off. I had some problems getting this to work. This reminds me, I never went back to fix this. I originally hooked this up but it was not working until I put the 2W-MOD2 maintenance sensor in (but then took that out as I was told the Elk supports the clean-me signal in the system sensor modules, and I suspected it was related to the false alarms).
5. They don't need to be run in a series. Depending on your house, this could affect the decision. There were cases where it would have been nice to not connect all the detectors due to placement within the house and how I had to wire it.

Overall it seemed more complicated, with less granularity after doing a 2-wire install. I also thought it would be cheaper (eol relays are required for four wire smokes) but after the reversing relay and 2W-MOD2, it is probably a wash. Having that granularity and paying a bit more for cable would be how I would do it over at this point. I put in a total of 7 so far.
 
Thanks for the reply. I was curious as I have done three installations with two wire System Sensors. They were all one story houses and the series wiring was very simple. The one 820 ohm EOL was very cost effective. I have explained the "clean me" feature of the two wire smokes to the customers and they like that feature. Also, since I installed indoor speakers I told them if the fire alarm goes off just get out of the house. When the fire department arrives and gives the all clear they can determine which smoke alarmed by the led's on the smokes (if it wasn't a true alarm).
 
Mike said:
as I was told the Elk supports the clean-me signal in the system sensor modules, and I suspected it was related to the false alarms).
When were you told that? I was under the impression they still only supported the GE Clean Me signal. The System sensor cleaning signal is different.
 
Steve said:
When were you told that? I was under the impression they still only supported the GE Clean Me signal. The System sensor cleaning signal is different.
I was told directly by ELK. The M1 supports the clean me signal from System Sensor. When a smoke needs cleaning the panel reads clean me detector. The smoke itself then displays a combination of led flashes.
 
rfdesq said:
Thanks for the reply. I was curious as I have done three installations with two wire System Sensors. They were all one story houses and the series wiring was very simple. The one 820 ohm EOL was very cost effective. I have explained the "clean me" feature of the two wire smokes to the customers and they like that feature. Also, since I installed indoor speakers I told them if the fire alarm goes off just get out of the house. When the fire department arrives and gives the all clear they can determine which smoke alarmed by the led's on the smokes (if it wasn't a true alarm).
Frankly, I was following the same logic when I went down the 2-wire path. I was not as worried about which one went off since my house is not so expansive that I need to be worried about the detector in the west wing or anything like that.

In my case, the initial troubles I had steered me towards leaning towards 4-wire in the future. False alarms typically happened when I was not around, and the wife was not very patient to go look at each detector. Plus when I finally suspected the wiring, it would have been easier since I would have known which leg rather than terminating each series separately until I got to the last and broken one.

Admittedly, had nothing gone wrong I would never have looked back on my decision. Now that all is well I have no issues, but at the time I was trying to isolate the issues I kept thinking how much easier this could have been and the extra granularity I could have had.
 
So guys, what do I have to find out now? Do I need to grab the brand/model/make of the smoke detector that they are going to install?
 
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