Smokes on non-main Elk Board issue

What detector are you using and are you using a relay for supervision of the power to the detector?
Firewolf 4-wire, no relay.
Is the power for the expander from a different source (not from the M1 but from a supplemental power supply). If you are using a seperate power supply did you tie the commons together.

Not a different source, I ran an 18/4 from the Elk down to the 2ndary cabinet. I twisted all the smokes to the SAUX +/-.

Check that you didnt accidently put the same address for expanders 2 and 3.
Not the same address. But, I did just notice that the little flashing light isn't blinking, and the only sensor on that expander isn't working. Would totally taking that expander offline help at all? I could take out both expanders 3&4 without any issues, if that'll help debug the situation.
 
BraveSirRobbin said:
I don't use smoke detectors on my Elk. Does it "close" or "open" its contacts on an alarm?

You can trouble shoot the software all day, but if he is truly reading seven volts for BOTH conditions (alarm and normal) it just isn't going to work! ;)

Can you do this simple test? Take out the leads to the smoke detector from the zone inputs. Put one lead of an EOL resistor in the + zone input and leave the other end of the resistor dangle. See what you are registering for your zone.

Then put the other end of the resistor to the - zone input terminal. See what your Elk is registering for that zone.

Then take that resistor out and put a piece of wire in its place (in other words short out the + and - zone inputs). See what your zone is registering.

This will take the smoke detector out of the picture all together. If it doesn't work (change) with these tests, there is something else basically wrong.
I'll do this test tomorrow, as I just put the kids to bed and i'm not allowed to set off the Elk alarm anymore.

Thanks very very much to all of you for your continued assistance with this. It's greatly appreciated.
 
hmmm, it seems you are trying to trouble shoot to many things at once. Maybe get an expander working one at a time. If you are using EOL states then test JUST with an EOL resistor as I mentioned above (i.e. don't connect any sensors to the board. Verify that the board is working correctly FIRST!!).

Maybe try to re-enroll your modules.

Beginners should quickly learn to get things working in steps. You can not connect an entire system together and throw the switch and expect it to work (I don't even do that). ;)
 
Honestly, I thought I was going slowly as my baby steps were getting the expanders working, then adding sensors.

I only just realized one of the expanders had an issue.

I'll strip out all the expanders except for one, get that working with the smoke, then add the others in.

Thanks for the "yo, you're still going too fast" tap :D
 
BraveSirRobbin said:
IVB said:
I'll strip out all the expanders except for one, get that working with the smoke, then add the others in.
You mean first get it working by using "just" an EOL resistor first correct? :D
Yes, now that you've given me those lovely step-by-step instructions.

Thanks again for taking the time to do that.
 
You can learn a lot by taking it step by step and using a multimeter.

For instance, I asked the question earlier if the smoke detector opened or closed its contacts when smoke was present (alarm condition). You can easily test this as follows:

I don't know how familiar you are using a multimeter so I will go over the very basics. Place your multimeter in "ohms" mode (horseshoe shaped symbol). Now short the leads of the meter together. You should see a near zero reading (probably something like 0.01). Now separate the leads. You should see something like "OL" which shows an open circuit or "infinite" resistance.

Now, just for grins set an Elk EOL resistor on a table and touch each end of the resistor with the meter's leads. When measuring resistance you HAVE to make sure your fingers are not in contact with the item measured as your body resistance could have an effect on the resistance being measured.

You should see something like 2180 which is within the tolerance of the 2200 ohm value.

A must have along with your multimeter are a good set of Clip Leads for your meter. This will let you clamp on resistors and give you hands free operation.

Also a set of THESE clip leads are good to have for configuring test setups on a bench.

Anyway what you can then do is remove the signal leads of the smoke detector from the Elk zone input and connect those leads to your multimeter and keep your multimeter on ohms measurement. You should be reading the value of the EOL resistor (assuming you properly have the EOL installed near the smoke detector). This is why you should get around seven volts when the smoke detector is connected to the Elk and is in the normal state as the resistance between the plus and ground of the zone is reading this same 2200 ohm resistance.

Now place the smoke detector in an alarm condition. Did the resistance reading go to near zero or infinite (open circuit)? It has to do one of the two. If it went to open circuit this means that when the smoke detector is in an alarm condition and hooked to the Elk it will see around 13.5 volts. If the resistance went to zero the voltage in an alarm condition that the Elk would see would be zero volts.

Does this make sense? By using a multimeter on a "contact closure" sensor (motion, smoke, glass break, magnetic contact, etc...) you can figure out what resistance you are giving a zone in the Elk on a motion/no motion, glass break, no glass break, open contact, closed contact, etc... condition with your sensor. Please note of course that if your sensor requires 12 volt power you have to have that connected for any of these tests to work.

OK, now that you know what resistances you are giving your Elk on both of the smoke detectors conditions you really don't need to have that smoke detector connected while testing your Elk zone inputs do you?? You can just use an EOL resistor and SIMULATE those conditions. This is the testing I was describing with the EOL resistor above.

Does this make any sense? You can see how you separate components and test their performance individually first before hooking them up?

Actually since I'm hard core on testing, I would have first rang out the cables going between the Elk and all my sensors before I installed anything. I'm sure you read the How To Install A Security System How-To and performed this testing on your cables before you started wiring your system! :D

Cable problems will lead to nightmare troubleshooting issues. I had my home pre-wired for security and I had shorted wires as well as open runs. Luckily I checked the wiring before I started connecting anything. Using the clip leads and a multimeter you can very quickly check your wiring and it is probably worth doing so, especially if you had a (and I use this word loosely after seeing the results of my new home) "professional" installation (i.e. did not do it yourself). Most installers will not take anywhere NEAR the care you will do and will yank, pull, tug, staple, and almost multilate wiring just to get it in place, especially if they are not around nor responsible for the following install!
 
Oh one other thing. If you are seeing zero ohms in your test with the smoke detector during a "smoke" or alarm condition and want to simulate this while testing your zone expanders I would just place an EOL resistor between the zone inputs of the Elk and then "short" (place a clip lead on either end of the resistor) across the resistor to simulate "smoke".

This way you will not have to disconnect the EOL to place a shorting wire across the zones like I first suggested. The reason is you will first have introduced an "open circuit" while taking your EOL out and putting a shorting wire in. This way you can just go from EOL to short without introducing an open circuit between those steps.
 
Great advice, thanks so much for taking the time to fully document this baby step guidance. I'll have to print this out and read it a few times to make sure I understand how to do everything.
Although I have a digital multimeter, I hadn't really used it for purposes other than basic cable-testing. Hence, it may take me some time to get my mind around the whole thing.

I may not post back to this thread for a few days, until I get through everything that you've said and digested it all. [well, that plus I'm only permitted 1hr or so per night of Elk playtime]. Wish me luck...
 
Well, post away if you have any problems or want advice on how to use your multimeter. THIS is the main purpose of CocoonTech and its How-To's. HELP people who want to try this stuff out!

So, NEVER feel bashfull asking ANY question! :D
 
BSR what are the winning lotto numbers????? Well you said dont be bashfull.....(and I am desperate since I am out of work at the moment)

If my memory is correct the opencircuit voltage on the zone would be a little over 13 Vdc, the normal EOL supervised would be about 7 Vdc, and a detector in alarm would be about 0.0 Vdc (a shorted zone).

I would also try powering up the detector with the contacts hooked to a multimeter to measure continuity for 30 seconds and see if it is triping into alarm during its startup time. Now I bet you are asking why do that if it works ok on the M1 and not on the expander. If the zone on the panel has Fire Verification enabled and the zone on the expander does not then that might......... explain things (the Fire Alarm Verification feature enabled would minimize the false alarm on startup).

Just an slightly educated guess.
 
After getting irritated b/c I had to be a contortionist to do my Elk testing, I have just completely disassembled the top 50% of my rack and my entire Elk setup.

In the last month, i've added so much stuff to the equipment closet (elk cabinet/speaker/keypad, 3 2ch amps, Xantech EXP9 zone expander), that I had this horrifically piecemeal and disgusting setup.

I'm confident (sorta) that I can resassemble it all. I'm justifying this the same way I did when I opted to blow up my HA/HT server 5 months ago - It had been up&running for 3 years, first as a PC, then as an HTPC client, then as a server, and had gobs of junk on it.

Cleaning up/laying down the right infrastructure is just so unsexy though...
 
I've done much of the suggested testing [not all, couldn't figure out how to put the smoke into alarm mode, the directions didn't quite work].

I've got a follow-up question: I used the status icon iin ElkRP to tell me what the voltage was on each zone. With my smoke hooked up to Zone9 but not "enabled" in ElkRP, I confirmed that there was 7 volts. I enabled it, all worked fine.

I then hooked it up to the ZoneExpander [which is hanging off a Data Bus Hub RETROFIT] off Zone17. It too was reading 7V, all other zones at 13.8V, just as it should.

However, as soon as I "enabled" the Fire Supervisory in the Elk, it immediately went into alarm mode. I checked the status icon again, it's still claiming 7V. I just don't get it.

Is it possible that this is a termination issue, and that even though the elk sees the right # of volts, I've hosed the termination on the bus hence putting into alarm mode?

Here's what I've currently got set vis-a-vis jumpers:
(I have a main board, data bus hub retrofit, keypad on branch1, zonexpander on branch2:)

Mainboard JP3 jumpered, DBHR JP1 Jumpered. [that's 1 branch]
Data Bus Branch 1: JP2 jumpered, Keypad jumpered.
Data Bus Branch 2: JP3 jumpered, M1XIN jumpered
Data Bus Branch 3: (tried both JP4 jumpered and not jumpered)
Data Bus Branch 4: (tried both JP5 jumpered and not jumpered)
 
To bring closure to this thread, Spanky demonstrated his rock-starness yet again, had me reset the EEProm and redownload my settings to the Elk system, which got it all to work.

Here's all the gory details of the options.

I still need to get this to work using the Data Bus Hub Retro, but that's a task for another day.
 
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