Solar Panel with inverter - will it interfere?

what you are talking about is wiring in parallel. the standard way panels are wired is in series. the negative of one panel is connected to the positive of an adjacent/nearby panel. the panel at the beginning of the run & the one at the end will each have an unconnected terminal, there will be one + and one - left unconnected. those 2 are run to the inverter along with a ground wire.

What is "standard" depends, of course on which standard you go by ;-)

This thread has focused on high-voltage (~300vdc) sources that provide power to a residence and the grid when the sun is shining.

Which is/can be inefficient -- and not at all the historical " standard" -- when use of the power generated is required 24 hours a day.

In this other "standard" case, 12, 24, and(or) 48vdc battery banks are "standard". My application is a subset of that which uses batteries as a uninterruptible power supply -- hence a 60vdc input inverter.

HTH ... Marc
 
what you are talking about is wiring in parallel. the standard way panels are wired is in series. the negative of one panel is connected to the positive of an adjacent/nearby panel. the panel at the beginning of the run & the one at the end will each have an unconnected terminal, there will be one + and one - left unconnected. those 2 are run to the inverter along with a ground wire.

What is "standard" depends, of course on which standard you go by ;-)

This thread has focused on high-voltage (~300vdc) sources that provide power to a residence and the grid when the sun is shining.

Which is/can be inefficient -- and not at all the historical " standard" -- when use of the power generated is required 24 hours a day.

In this other "standard" case, 12, 24, and(or) 48vdc battery banks are "standard". My application is a subset of that which uses batteries as a uninterruptible power supply -- hence a 60vdc input inverter.

HTH ... Marc

yes i was referring to a grid-tie system, which is pretty much the standard these days. the company that did my install has only done 1 battery bank install in the past 4 years - and that was for an off-grid system. with the advent of net metering, banks of batteries became an inefficient use of space and money for grid-tie systems. of course, this doesn't apply to off grid or your ups application.
 
The panels wire into the inverters and then to the electrical panel.
in between the inverters and the electric panel there should be a disconnect.
The proper location for the filter would be between the disconnect and the panel, thus being able to work on it with power off. Turn disconnect off and break off. Be sure to have a licensed electrician do the work.

the disconnect is on the dc side, between the panels and the inverter.
 
what you are talking about is wiring in parallel. the standard way panels are wired is in series. the negative of one panel is connected to the positive of an adjacent/nearby panel. the panel at the beginning of the run & the one at the end will each have an unconnected terminal, there will be one + and one - left unconnected. those 2 are run to the inverter along with a ground wire.

What is "standard" depends, of course on which standard you go by ;-)

This thread has focused on high-voltage (~300vdc) sources that provide power to a residence and the grid when the sun is shining.

Which is/can be inefficient -- and not at all the historical " standard" -- when use of the power generated is required 24 hours a day.

In this other "standard" case, 12, 24, and(or) 48vdc battery banks are "standard". My application is a subset of that which uses batteries as a uninterruptible power supply -- hence a 60vdc input inverter.

HTH ... Marc

yes i was referring to a grid-tie system, which is pretty much the standard these days.


LOL The grid-tie is not the "standard" where tying into the grid is not an option ;-)

And so that we understand correctly: if the power grid goes out after sun-down, even with the $K spent on your photovoltaic system, your AC power goes out too jist like all them folks who didn't invest??

I'll stick (for now) with my old-timey "standard" which is still "pretty much standard these days" too ;-)

... Marc
 
LOL The grid-tie is not the "standard" where tying into the grid is not an option ;-)
if you can find statistics that show off-grid installs exceed grid-tie installs in this part of the world, then i stand corrected. otherwise i'll continue to refer to grid-tie as standard aka usual aka common aka customary.

And so that we understand correctly: if the power grid goes out after sun-down, even with the $K spent on your photovoltaic system, your AC power goes out too jist like all them folks who didn't invest??

and if the power goes out during the day, the inverter will shut off to prevent the possibility of electrocuting workers who may be working on the line downstream from the array. so no power then as well. i also have a car, even with the $K spent on it, i can't use when i'm asleep, jist like all them folks who don't own cars.
 
LOL The grid-tie is not the "standard" where tying into the grid is not an option ;-)
if you can find statistics that show off-grid installs exceed grid-tie installs in this part of the world, then i stand corrected. otherwise i'll continue to refer to grid-tie as standard aka usual aka common aka customary.

No correction needed. "A standard" everywhere. "The standard" as written previously depends on definition of "this" in "this part of the world" ;-)

One of the suggestions that's being investigated in Cocoontechforum design is to make indication of geographic location mandatory (damage and I both do, but many other folks don't).

This would also help with keeping discussions useful and productive with less side-tracking if they depend on geographically based issues and practices such as regulations and codes (US, EU CA, Ca etc), AC voltages, frequencies, parts availability and others.

In any case, CoCooners everywhere might want to take note of the important differences between high-voltage and low-voltage systems with respect to function, cost and practicality of DIY .

For small to mid sized systems and(or) where back-up of the grid is desireable, the 48V battery standard, which ABIK went into broad use in US telephone exchanges in the ~ 1890's, is still a prevalent standard -- even, perhaps, in the Republic of CA.

... Marc
 
For small to mid sized systems and(or) where back-up of the grid is desireable, the 48V battery standard, which ABIK went into broad use in US telephone exchanges in the ~ 1890's, is still a prevalent standard -- even, perhaps, in the Republic of CA.

sma, the german based developer of my inverter, has this to say about themselves:
"SMA Solar Technology AG develops, produces and sells solar inverters and monitoring systems for photovoltaic applications. SMA is the world's largest producer in this segment and is the only vendor that has a product range with the matching inverter type for any module type and any power class."

they define small to mid-range as 700w-10kw and they sell 13 different models of high-voltage grid-tie inverters to the US market and no 48V grid-tie.
http://www.sma.de/en_US/products/grid-tied.../sunny-boy.html in fact, if you look at their offerings for other countries, they are all high-voltage inverters (at least for the ones i could understand ;)). it would appear that wiring panels serially is the standard way of doing so for grid-tie systems...world-wide.

in the event you prefer not to use standard, high voltage inverters, you can opt for micro-inverters per panel and run AC from the array instead of DC. see http://www.enphaseenergy.com/ if they affect powerline communications, i don't know.
 
For small to mid sized systems and(or) where back-up of the grid is desireable, the 48V battery standard, which ABIK went into broad use in US telephone exchanges in the ~ 1890's, is still a prevalent standard -- even, perhaps, in the Republic of CA.

sma, the german based developer of my inverter, has this to say about themselves:
"SMA Solar Technology AG develops, produces and sells solar inverters and monitoring systems for photovoltaic applications. SMA is the world's largest producer in this segment and is the only vendor that has a product range with the matching inverter type for any module type and any power class."

they define small to mid-range as 700w-10kw and they sell 13 different models of high-voltage grid-tie inverters to the US market and no 48V grid-tie.
http://www.sma.de/en_US/products/grid-tied.../sunny-boy.html in fact, if you look at their offerings for other countries, they are all high-voltage inverters (at least for the ones i could understand ;) ). it would appear that wiring panels serially is the standard way of doing so for grid-tie systems...world-wide.

in the event you prefer not to use standard, high voltage inverters, you can opt for micro-inverters per panel and run AC from the array instead of DC. see http://www.enphaseenergy.com/ if they affect powerline communications, i don't know.

LOL. Google: < 48vdc inverter > yields 24700 hits including Sunny Island

The manufacturer of your Sunny Boy unit does in fact manufacturer the Sunny Island line about which it states: "Sunny Island inverter will not operate without batteries and requires a 48Vdc connection.


" SMA Sunny Island
Off-Grid Solar Inverter
Model 4248U

The Sunny Island is an inverter with built-in battery charger. The primary function of the Sunny Island is Back Up Power in the event of a power failure on the Grid. It is connected to a 48 vdc battery bank up to 6000 AH in size. The output is 120 vac. Two Sunny Islands can be used in series for 240 vac output. The Sunny Island can use AC input from the grid to charge batteries. There are two AC connections in the Sunny Island, AC IN and AC OUT. AC IN is connected to the utility grid or a generator. AC OUT is connected to the etc"

Shall we now explore whether 24vdc is a standard or not ? ... Marc < jist kidding! ;-)
 
The Sunny Island is an inverter with built-in battery charger. The primary function of the Sunny Island is Back Up Power in the event of a power failure on the Grid. It is connected to a 48 vdc battery bank up to 6000
yeah they make all of 2 off-grid inverters vs 13 grid-tie.

Shall we now explore whether 24vdc is a standard or not ? ... Marc < jist kidding! ;-)
somehow i think you enjoy playing semantics police ;)
 
The Sunny Island is an inverter with built-in battery charger. The primary function of the Sunny Island is Back Up Power in the event of a power failure on the Grid. It is connected to a 48 vdc battery bank up to 6000
yeah they make all of 2 off-grid inverters vs 13 grid-tie.

Shall we now explore whether 24vdc is a standard or not ? ... Marc < jist kidding! ;-)
somehow i think you enjoy playing semantics police ;)

No policing intended. Simply trying to be helpful by pointing out the reality that there are, and long have been, other voltages in "standard" use.

And in particular, Cocooners that have an interest in using PV's with battery-based back-up function should be forewarned that the newer, high-voltage technology is optimized for something else and may not be what they want.

And as always, they should be wary of being swayed by manufacturers' claims that the particular technology they sell is the only legitimate approach -- and of even broader claims by a particular manufacturer's customer base.

Furthermore high-voltage direct current is something to be treated with utmost respect and caution by DIYer's because DC is potentially much more hazardous to people, and somewhat harder to install and maintain safely than AC of the same nominal voltage.

Moreover, that grand-daddy of all electrical "standards" in the US, the National Electrical Code (NEC) makes a fundamental distinction in the code for voltages less than 50 volts which can reduce cost and complexity and be helpful for DIYers. .

In short Cocooners might think twice before choosing a 300+ volts DC system instead of the other "standards" of 48vdc, 24vdc, and 12vdc especially for DIY, battery-backed applications.

But nothing in what I wrote is intended to imply that the 300+ vdc systems are not the best available, or "standard" for some purposes.

Just my tres centavos ... Marc
 
In short Cocooners might think twice before messing with 300+ volts of DC instead of the other "standards" of 48vdc, 24vdc, and 12vdc especially for battery-backed applications.

cocooners might also think twice about the added cost of using a 48/24/12 vdc system. with an inverter like the sunny island, you will be required to have batteries. furthermore, since it's not grid-tie, you will not get the benefit of net metering, which means you'll need to store all the excess power generated during the day otherwise you've wasting your investment in the array.

make sure you have enough capacity so you don't run the batteries down too low every night otherwise their lifespan decreases (50%?). don't forget to check the water levels of the batteries every 3 months and clean the battery terminals. is it cold where you live? then your batteries won't be as efficient and you'll need to add more to compensate or pay extra to heat their environment. expect to replace batteries 3-6 times during the life of your solar panels. hopefully you'll have an easy time dumping 4,8,12 etc batteries at a time in some abandoned field. did one battery die? expect to replace the whole bank. figure on paying an extra 10-30 cents/kwh over the life of the battery.
 
cocooners might also think twice about the added cost of using a 48/24/12 vdc system. with an inverter like the sunny island, you will be required to have batteries. furthermore, since it's not grid-tie, you will not get the benefit of net metering, which means you'll need to store all the excess power generated during the day otherwise you've wasting your investment in the array.

One of the reasons I like the www.xantrex.com/ inverters. They do (a few of them) priority powering. You configure it HOW you want it to power things, and it will take your solar power, shove it into batteries first, then to the grid (if you so chose). Or, it can power the batteries from the panels, and supplement charging from the grid (if having a blackout is a large concern to you).

If the grid is out, you are isolated from the grid (UL 1741 was it?). "No Islanding". As was said, you can't inject power into the grid when there is no power from the grid. By being isolated, then you run off of batteries.

make sure you have enough capacity so you don't run the batteries down too low every night otherwise their lifespan decreases (50%?). don't forget to check the water levels of the batteries every 3 months and clean the battery terminals. is it cold where you live? then your batteries won't be as efficient and you'll need to add more to compensate or pay extra to heat their environment. expect to replace batteries 3-6 times during the life of your solar panels. hopefully you'll have an easy time dumping 4,8,12 etc batteries at a time in some abandoned field. did one battery die? expect to replace the whole bank. figure on paying an extra 10-30 cents/kwh over the life of the battery.

If you live in a cold area, you would generally keep the batteries in the basement. So, the temperature based lifespan thing doesn't "count". You don't end up checking the water levels, as you would use deep cycle batteries, do not get as effected as the "car" batteries you are referring to ("car" batteries are the only ones I am aware of that are hurt by a deep cycle). Expecting to replace the batteries. I do not have solid numbers, however, most of the better units do a charging that is similar to how a Batterminder works. As such, they last a LOT longer then you are indicating. I've had batteries (2 of them to be exact), where they were ready to be disposed of (wouldn't hold a charge for longer then 3 hours).

I ran it on my battery minder and now, 4 years later the thing can almost hold a charge thoughout the Winter. Empirically, I determined this as it's been 4 years since I ran it on the battery minder. I forgot to plug the battery (from my lawn mower) into the battery minder for Winter. The battery still had enough go to start my mower, 4 months into Winter. It struggled, and had to REALLY crank the mower (probably the oil had thickened too much), but it did start. Again, this was a battery that couldn't hold a charge for more then 3 or so hours. I determined that number by, one day I charged the battery up to mow the lawn. I disconnected the battery from the charger and was about the start the mower. Instead, I went to the store with the family, when I came back...it was about 3 or so hours. This was pre-owning a battery minder. The battery was not able to turn the motor over.

Why would you just "dump" the batteries in a field? Most places around where I live will take them for free, as they process them to get the lead out. They actually make a profit from that.

If one battery died...why would you need to replace the whole bank? I would replace that one battery. Seems a little simple...am I missing why you said that? Where did you get the pay an extra 30cents/kwh over the life of the battery?

I guess I'm missing something here.
 
You don't end up checking the water levels, as you would use deep cycle batteries, do not get as effected as the "car" batteries you are referring to ("car" batteries are the only ones I am aware of that are hurt by a deep cycle).

There are AGM deep cycle batteries that don't lose water, but they are very expensive compared to "standard" wet deep cycle batteries. There seems to be a consensus on the various RV forums that deep cycle batteries made for golf carts provide the best bang for the buck. They require regular water checks.

I had the original AGM battery in my Miata for 10 years before I replaced it, and it was still working fine. I kept it on an Accumate smart charger during the winter, but that was probably unnceessary. I recently dug out the old battery from almost a year under my workbench to test some stuff on my Elk system, and it still had plenty of charge. AGM batteries don't self-discharge much. Too bad they are so expensive. On the other hand, the replacement I bought for the Miata will be cost effective compared to a conventional battery even if it lasts only half as long as the original.
 
FYI, I used THESE Concord AGM batteries in solar applications in a previous job and would run them down way past 50% in the winter (did not have enough solar charge on a few stations) and they would always charge back up. I was routinely impressed each year with them.
 
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