Solution for Water Flow Monitoring?

[crosen]

I want to put a residential water management solution in place with three components:

1. Water Detection (triggers when a "dry zone" gets wet)
2. Water Flow Monitoring (to help determine when there may be a leak, even if water is not detected in a dry zone)
3. Water Shutoff Mechanism (motorized valve triggered by control system)

I know WaterCop and other solutions offer 1. and 3. I'm looking for solutions that do the water flow monitoring and can integrate with third party systems. It's OK if the device also performs one or both of the other functions. Suggestions?

 

[sic0048]

Elk makes a nice water cut off valve (ELK-WSV). Of course you need some way to close it. There are several ways of doing this.

Here is a thread using the X10 DC10A wireless sensors.

Here is another generic thread.

Search for water sensor to find a lot of information.

For water usage monitoring, you basically need to get a water meter that has an external measuring capacity. There are several that use a magnet to read the number of rotations the meter is making and can therefore determine usage. You could either replace your existing meter, or more easily just add it in line after your existing meter.

Search for water meter for more information.

 

[crosen]

I'm covered on the water sensor and water shut-off mechansim. What I need is a flow monitor.

Water usage is not vital, but rather an indication of whether water is flowing. Because the application is flood/leak detection, a general purpose water meter will not necessarily be a good fit. The unit would ideally have some intelligence so that its interface can signal when water has been running for a pre-specified period of time.

I've searched the forum, and see much discussion on water sensors, etc., but don't really see anything directly responsive to this particular need?

 

[Automation]

You need one of these water meters that report usage.
http://www.jerman.com/dljmeter.html

I've been using one with HomeSeer for about 3 months so far so good.

 

[Ira]

I'm covered on the water sensor and water shut-off mechansim. What I need is a flow monitor.

Water usage is not vital, but rather an indication of whether water is flowing. Because the application is flood/leak detection, a general purpose water meter will not necessarily be a good fit. The unit would ideally have some intelligence so that its interface can signal when water has been running for a pre-specified period of time.

I've searched the forum, and see much discussion on water sensors, etc., but don't really see anything directly responsive to this particular need?

I've been looking into that sort of stuff for quite a while, and I don't think you will find an "all in one" device that is less than thousands of dollars. There are lots of flow sensors out there that will output an analog signal (voltage or current) that varies with flow amount that can be processed by other devices. Even those can cost hundreds of dollars. There are flow switches that can tell you via dry contacts when flow has reached a certain level and then when it drops back below that level. Is it good enough just to know that flow has reached a certain level, or do you need to know the flow amount as it varies?

From my research, a lot depends on the flow level that you want to detect. Do you want to detect anything over two gallons/minute, or do you want to detect a slow leak, e.g., gallons/hour instead of gallons per minute? If it's the latter, most of the devices seem to have very small input/output sizes -- maybe 1/4" or 1/2" diameter -- and don't like flows in the multiple gallons per minute range. I wonder what would happen if you created a short "secondary path" in the main water line and put the flow monitor there. In other words, put a couple of T's in the main line a couple of feet apart. Run a water line from one T to the other T, then put the monitor in that line. Would the monitor be able to give any meaningful info in that setup? Any fluid dynamics guys around?

Ira

 

[cornutt]

Here's a thought: first get an electrical shutoff valve installed on the service. Then, connect an automotive pressure sensor to the line, and connect its output to a zone on your controller. You can then read the voltage output in an automation program, and with a simple mechanical pressure gauge, you can calibrate the output value. You can get the sensors ("senders") for about $75.

Then: During times when you know the house is unoccupied or nothing should be drawing water, have your controller shut off the main service. Then, monitor the pressure sensor output for a while and see if the pressure drops. You may have to do some tweaking to allow for water heater cycling, but that's the basic idea.

 

[pete_c]

I'm using a 1-wire HB dual counter to measure metered water flow for my main and my sprinkler system. Works fine.

Using one valve to shut off sprinkler system - now wondering if I can automate a bit more with a solenoid operated valve.

Ideally an all in one 1-wire solution would be even more beneficial. (and add a means to measure water pressure, leak, water shutoff etc). Maybe pure 1-wire or a combo device like the "web control" device you see mentioned.

Ideal for a vacation home too.

recently - told to me last week....

I have a friend who has a vacation home in CO. He decided to turn down his heat a bit too much (save energy costs) and went there a couple of weeks ago for a couple of days to relax a bit.

A couple of pipes had burst because of his energy saving venture

This ended up causing him around $1000 or so to repair (not including the drywall damage)....and really didn't make for a nice weekend for him or his wife (very bad WAF weekend)

 

[crosen]

I've been looking into that sort of stuff for quite a while, and I don't think you will find an "all in one" device that is less than thousands of dollars. There are lots of flow sensors out there that will output an analog signal (voltage or current) that varies with flow amount that can be processed by other devices. Even those can cost hundreds of dollars. There are flow switches that can tell you via dry contacts when flow has reached a certain level and then when it drops back below that level. Is it good enough just to know that flow has reached a certain level, or do you need to know the flow amount as it varies?

$1k seems about right for an all one, based on the one device I've found (www.flologic.com, $1,100 for flow detection and shutoff.)

Getting notification when flow exceeds or drops below a preset threshold should do the trick. I'd set the threshold to a little above the "drip" factor to establish that water was running. Then, I'd allow water to run for different times depending on whether the home was in HOME or AWAY mode before cutting off the water.

From my research, a lot depends on the flow level that you want to detect. Do you want to detect anything over two gallons/minute, or do you want to detect a slow leak, e.g., gallons/hour instead of gallons per minute? If it's the latter, most of the devices seem to have very small input/output sizes -- maybe 1/4" or 1/2" diameter -- and don't like flows in the multiple gallons per minute range.

The device needs to monitor the main water input in an average size home. Can you suggest any flow sensors that would provide the above described triggers and handle this flow?

Thanks to all for the help so far.

 

[Ira]

I've been looking into that sort of stuff for quite a while, and I don't think you will find an "all in one" device that is less than thousands of dollars. There are lots of flow sensors out there that will output an analog signal (voltage or current) that varies with flow amount that can be processed by other devices. Even those can cost hundreds of dollars. There are flow switches that can tell you via dry contacts when flow has reached a certain level and then when it drops back below that level. Is it good enough just to know that flow has reached a certain level, or do you need to know the flow amount as it varies?

$1k seems about right for an all one, based on the one device I've found (www.flologic.com, $1,100 for flow detection and shutoff.)

Getting notification when flow exceeds or drops below a preset threshold should do the trick. I'd set the threshold to a little above the "drip" factor to establish that water was running. Then, I'd allow water to run for different times depending on whether the home was in HOME or AWAY mode before cutting off the water.

From my research, a lot depends on the flow level that you want to detect. Do you want to detect anything over two gallons/minute, or do you want to detect a slow leak, e.g., gallons/hour instead of gallons per minute? If it's the latter, most of the devices seem to have very small input/output sizes -- maybe 1/4" or 1/2" diameter -- and don't like flows in the multiple gallons per minute range.

The device needs to monitor the main water input in an average size home. Can you suggest any flow sensors that would provide the above described triggers and handle this flow?

Thanks to all for the help so far.

I never found any flow meters I would consider buying, so I didn't keep track of what I found. I just did hours of searches for "flow meter", "flow sensor", etc. omega.com is one site I remember having a lot of flow sensors, but again, none that would do what I wanted it to do at a price I was willing to pay.

I'm going the "regular" leak detector/sensor route. In areas that I can't put a hardwired detector, I will use wireless (GE NX-695). I have an Elk water valve to shut the water off when a leak is detected. Since it seems like washing machine hoses are a major source of water damage, I also bought a Watts IntelliFlow shutoff valve for the washer.

 

[AutomateIt]

I've been looking into that sort of stuff for quite a while, and I don't think you will find an "all in one" device that is less than thousands of dollars. There are lots of flow sensors out there that will output an analog signal (voltage or current) that varies with flow amount that can be processed by other devices. Even those can cost hundreds of dollars. There are flow switches that can tell you via dry contacts when flow has reached a certain level and then when it drops back below that level. Is it good enough just to know that flow has reached a certain level, or do you need to know the flow amount as it varies?

$1k seems about right for an all one, based on the one device I've found (www.flologic.com, $1,100 for flow detection and shutoff.)

Getting notification when flow exceeds or drops below a preset threshold should do the trick. I'd set the threshold to a little above the "drip" factor to establish that water was running. Then, I'd allow water to run for different times depending on whether the home was in HOME or AWAY mode before cutting off the water.

From my research, a lot depends on the flow level that you want to detect. Do you want to detect anything over two gallons/minute, or do you want to detect a slow leak, e.g., gallons/hour instead of gallons per minute? If it's the latter, most of the devices seem to have very small input/output sizes -- maybe 1/4" or 1/2" diameter -- and don't like flows in the multiple gallons per minute range.

The device needs to monitor the main water input in an average size home. Can you suggest any flow sensors that would provide the above described triggers and handle this flow?

Thanks to all for the help so far.

This is exactly what I do with HomeSeer. If the house is unoccupied (flag within HomeSeer based on RFID, and a combination of motion sensors) I check to see if more than 2 gallons have been used at a time. The ice maker uses ~ gallon. If more than a gallon is used at one time then the main is shut off (water cop).

 

[Ira]

This is exactly what I do with HomeSeer. If the house is unoccupied (flag within HomeSeer based on RFID, and a combination of motion sensors) I check to see if more than 2 gallons have been used at a time. The ice maker uses ~ gallon. If more than a gallon is used at one time then the main is shut off (water cop).

How exactly are you determining if you have used more than two gallons at a time? What hardware are you using to detect the usage? By more than two gallons at a time, do you mean more than two gallons over a period of time, or two gallons while the house is still unoccupied, or are you actually sensing flow as well as quantity?

Ira

 

[Ira]

Here's a thought: first get an electrical shutoff valve installed on the service. Then, connect an automotive pressure sensor to the line, and connect its output to a zone on your controller. You can then read the voltage output in an automation program, and with a simple mechanical pressure gauge, you can calibrate the output value. You can get the sensors ("senders") for about $75.

Then: During times when you know the house is unoccupied or nothing should be drawing water, have your controller shut off the main service. Then, monitor the pressure sensor output for a while and see if the pressure drops. You may have to do some tweaking to allow for water heater cycling, but that's the basic idea.

That brings up another issue that may need to be given consideration. If you close a valve on the water line for an extended period of time, you may create a "closed system", meaning that there isn't anything that will handle an increase in water pressure downstream from the valve (maybe due to the hot water heater) other than possibly the pressure release on the water heater itself. From what I've been reading, you should have an expansion tank downstream from the shutoff valve to handle pressure changes after the valve. The same would be true if you have a check valve or some types of pressure regulators that keep water from flowing "backwards", thus creating a closed system.

Ira

 

[crosen]

That brings up another issue that may need to be given consideration. If you close a valve on the water line for an extended period of time, you may create a "closed system", meaning that there isn't anything that will handle an increase in water pressure downstream from the valve (maybe due to the hot water heater) other than possibly the pressure release on the water heater itself. From what I've been reading, you should have an expansion tank downstream from the shutoff valve to handle pressure changes after the valve. The same would be true if you have a check valve or some types of pressure regulators that keep water from flowing "backwards", thus creating a closed system.

I've also heard of other potential issues when you close off the water line. For example, it seems some appliances require a certain intake of water and can be damaged if that intake is blocked. (Perhaps certain water heaters are an example of this?) Any insight into this or any other considerations when messing with the main water line?

 

[AutomateIt]

This is exactly what I do with HomeSeer. If the house is unoccupied (flag within HomeSeer based on RFID, and a combination of motion sensors) I check to see if more than 2 gallons have been used at a time. The ice maker uses ~ gallon. If more than a gallon is used at one time then the main is shut off (water cop).

How exactly are you determining if you have used more than two gallons at a time? What hardware are you using to detect the usage? By more than two gallons at a time, do you mean more than two gallons over a period of time, or two gallons while the house is still unoccupied, or are you actually sensing flow as well as quantity?

Ira

I'm using one of these meters from http://www.jerman.com/dljmeter.html that's resolution is 1 gallon. I have a one wire counter board connected to the meter. I have a virtual device in HomeSeer that marks the current usage and time. When my house goes unoccupied I clear this virtual device and run a script each time the counter incriments. If it incriments more than 2 ( 2 gallons) in a 1 minute period HomeSeer sends a text message to me. It's worked well since I set it up. I've only had one false signal when a toilet was stuck open. I have this combined with the leaf wetness sensors connected to DS10A's under all water sources in the house. Combined it works well.

 

[Ira]

I'm using one of these meters from http://www.jerman.com/dljmeter.html that's resolution is 1 gallon. I have a one wire counter board connected to the meter. I have a virtual device in HomeSeer that marks the current usage and time. When my house goes unoccupied I clear this virtual device and run a script each time the counter incriments. If it incriments more than 2 ( 2 gallons) in a 1 minute period HomeSeer sends a text message to me. It's worked well since I set it up. I've only had one false signal when a toilet was stuck open. I have this combined with the leaf wetness sensors connected to DS10A's under all water sources in the house. Combined it works well.

Combining the water meter with the wetness sensors sounds like a good idea. It seems like triggering on two gallons in one minute or less may not be "sensitive" enough, unless the only thing that part of the system is supposed to detect is a full on water pipe break or the equivalent, and the wetness sensors are supposed to catch small leaks. Two gallons a minute is quite a bit of water. Doesn't a shower head put out about two gallons a minute at wide open?

Ira