Souring on zWave

[68sting]

what made you know you need to replace the switches? I wonder if mine are bad or partially bad, and I just don't know it.

They would almost always work fine manually. Usually it would just stop polling, working remotely or just flake out. The Act switches were the worst for me. Interestingly I have only had one dimmer module go bad. Its all wall switches for me. I use Homeseer mainly because they have such a strong zwave support system. The ztroller is great, they have another program called zseer that you use to maintain and test your zwave network. Its easy to remove bad modules, test individual modules, see what nodes are associated to others, re optimize the network. In a nutshell it helps a lot when your software company focus on the product. You just got get Dean cracken. lol When that happens you realize its the hardware that's having the issues. I used to get very frustrated until I got zseer. I then quickly realized its always the hardware. Heres a screen shot of my network. This is in a 4200 sqft house and my theater room is double 5/8" sheetrock and the network is strong. You can notice on the far right the "outside patio" light only has two associations and there with switches in another room. This switch is right beside my theater room switches yet for some reason it doesn't see them. Is that a bad switch? It works fine but seeing things like this helps figure out whats going on.

 

[macromark]

IVB - The Intermatic HA22 interface is horribly out of date at this point and I would recommend replacing that, if you can. The Zensys firmware has been updated since that device was released and 4.27 firmware has improved mixed network support (9.6k and 40k devices) among other changes. The HA22 is based on the Zensys serial API, so if your CQC driver is also based on that, any Z-Wave certified interface (like our Z-Troller) should work with it. If not, Cooper has a similar ASCII-based interface with the 4.27 firmware and it would be fairly easy to add support for that. Google "Aspire RF232" for info.

---
forgot to mention... setting up the system and moving the interface, after the fact, requires re-optimizing the network, which is also not possible with the HA22 unless you set it up as a primary controller. You can do that with a laptop and some software (like Z-Tool).

 

[twilo123]

mark since the cooper is basically just a rebranded ztroller can you get me the full ascii doc on it or would express controls give me it by chance. the doc i have from cooper is basic at best.

 

[macromark]

mark since the cooper is basically just a rebranded ztroller can you get me the full ascii doc on it or would express controls give me it by chance. the doc i have from cooper is basic at best.

Cooper owns the ASCII code, so I believe you'd need to get the info from them. I'll look into it though...

Update - I have the protocol info now. If anyone's interested, please just email me.

 

[IVB]

Interesting findings on my zWave issues, looks like dead devices that I didn't know about were the issue. As mentioned in another thread, 7 of my 22 devices weren't discoverable by the leviton remote (ie, zwave communication wasn't working).

1) Upon further research, they weren't "exclude-able"/"include-able" with my Intermatic remote. Sure would be nice if I had some way of telling with the Intermatic stuff which pieces were dead and which weren't.

2) Mikla is writing a go-between app to do polling, so we can get the ViziaRF/CQC driver to have that. I used that with my Intermatic USB Stick, and found out that it thinks I have 40 devices in my network. Odd, as both CQC & ThinkEssentials don't see all that garbage. I blew away my whole Intermatic HA07 network, started over with just 8 devices that I know work. Holy crap, this network is really fast now.

So the question is: Stick with Intermatic and sell off the ViziaRF, or sell off the Intermatic and stick with ViziaRF.

I think i'm leaning towards ditching the Intermatic as soon as the ViziaRF driver does polling. It is newer, and replacing stuff with ViziaRF, although more expensive, would at least keep me at latest gen.

 

[Herdfan]

I may do my annual "what is the bare minimum cost for RadioRA I could try", ........ which might mean researching what the hell "Lutron Fluorescent Tu-Wire" is.

So the question is: Stick with Intermatic and sell off the ViziaRF, or sell off the Intermatic and stick with ViziaRF.

At this point, just do what you have always known you should do, go RadioRA. Or call our "friend" and go full blown Homeworks. You know it is where you want to end up. Plus no neutral needed for dimmers and if you start with a wired processor, then you are ready when you do your remodel. (You can do wireless off a wired processor by using repeaters.)

Lutron's Tu-Wire info: http://www.lutron.com/cms400/page.aspx?id=6503

PS. Two years this month and not one device failure or missed command. (Technically there were some missed commands, but it was because the cleaning lady unplugged a repeater. That repeater has since been moved.)

 

[Deane Johnson]

I've been following this thread and the Insteon thread and don't find encouragement in Insteon, ZWave or UPB. I have a house full of PCS X-10 that will need to be upgraded which is why I'm following these discussions. After throwing away all of my Smarthome X-10 some time ago, now having to replace the PCS X-10, it might be better to pay a little more if one were to get something more permanent. This is, by the way, to be used in a retrofit environment, but I do have ground.

I use an Ocelot for control, have no interest in computer based programs that I know of. I don't need phone access, Ipod, Wee-wee or any outside access.

I saw the comments on LutronRA above and it led me to wonder if it is a solid no fail system, even though being more expensive. Is the reason more don't use it the cost?

I primarily want scenes.

Could I use the Lutron "system interfaces" such as the RA-RS232 or one of the others, triggering it with the Ocelot.

Can anyone point me to a good basic Lutron forum, or even an old thread on this forum?

Maybe most important, does anyone have comments on the negatives of LutronRA other than cost?

Who is a good on-line dealer if I get that far?

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[IVB]

At this point, just do what you have always known you should do, go RadioRA. Or call our "friend" and go full blown Homeworks. You know it is where you want to end up. Plus no neutral needed for dimmers and if you start with a wired processor, then you are ready when you do your remodel. (You can do wireless off a wired processor by using repeaters.)

Heh, yeah, that's certainly true. But one thing has started clicking and if things break our way, we'll hire the architect in the 12/31/09->2/28/10 timeframe. With this funky mortgage market, I need to hoard as much cash as possible to start the remodel, and whe wife would kill me if I dropped $$ on the Homeworks stuff and had to push back that kickoff date. Since the remodel is suddenly looking possible within 12 months, spending anything on RadioRA would be a waste.

But at least this is true - the wife now agrees that automated lighting is a good thing, which was the point of the zWave investment. Previously, she just didn't see the point as she was in a "non-scene, single-room" frame of mind, and was willing to get up to turn off the lights.

 

[IVB]

I saw the comments on LutronRA above and it led me to wonder if it is a solid no fail system, even though being more expensive. Is the reason more don't use it the cost?

I primarily want scenes.

Can anyone point me to a good basic Lutron forum, or even an old thread on this forum?

Maybe most important, does anyone have comments on the negatives of LutronRA other than cost?

Everyone I know with RadioRA swears by it, as they are very happy with the reliability. Cost & the ability to see dim-level from a PC are the reasons more folks don't use it, although I think that dim-level issue is a non-event as I never care about that on my setup. Supposedly, HomeWorks is a much sturdier system to setup as I hear the programming software for RadioRA isn't the easiest, but that's also a temporal issue as once it's setup you wouldn't care. Plus HomeWorks is dealer-only.

I personally went with zWave over RadioRA because of cost - the switches were $32 vs $140, and compared with the $10 dimmer switches that the wife has content with, I couldn't get 15 devices * $108 extra = $1620 past the wife. Hell, she was questioning a $32 zWave light switch, and kept calling me lazy.

 

[Deane Johnson]

The cost difference is a bit overpowering, isn't it.

One of the issues I face is that ADI has been really sluggish in getting the Ocelot adapted to Z-Wave. They supposedly have new products at the FCC awaiting approval, but we don't know exactly what they are.

I suppose in the end, the Lutron will prove to be too expensive to consider and I'll have to wait for Z-Wave/Ocelot. I assume there is not a Z-Wave transmitter that can be talked to via RS-232, then it triggers the Z-Wave switches?

The reason I use Ocelot is simplicity, but also it receives IR nicely and I can control it with either an X-10 keypad or my Pronto remote.

Can you leave the X-10 in place and add Z-Wave slowly? I know they don't talk to each other, but can they exist together in the same environment?

 

[IVB]

The cost difference is a bit overpowering, isn't it.

This is obviously a personal decision, but for me it was only until I got the wife to see the value. She doesn't yet know that I want to drop huge $$ on HomeWorks, but my plan is to allocate $40K-$50K in the remodel to make it HA-friendly (totally redo current HV wiring, re-run 1st floor low-LV and run 2nd floor LV to a real central location, Homeworks switches). We're putting a 2nd floor on, which is already going to be $400K+, so what's another 10% (well, that's my sales pitch, she typically rolls her eyes when I say that but i'm optimistic she'll succumb when push comes to shove).

I suppose in the end, the Lutron will prove to be too expensive to consider and I'll have to wait for Z-Wave/Ocelot. I assume there is not a Z-Wave transmitter that can be talked to via RS-232, then it triggers the Z-Wave switches?

Yes there is - the leviton RZCOP (or is it VRCOP, can't remember which is the new model #).

Can you leave the X-10 in place and add Z-Wave slowly? I know they don't talk to each other, but can they exist together in the same environment?

Oh sure, no worries there.

 

[Dogman]

The cost difference is a bit overpowering, isn't it.

One of the issues I face is that ADI has been really sluggish in getting the Ocelot adapted to Z-Wave. They supposedly have new products at the FCC awaiting approval, but we don't know exactly what they are.

I suppose in the end, the Lutron will prove to be too expensive to consider and I'll have to wait for Z-Wave/Ocelot. I assume there is not a Z-Wave transmitter that can be talked to via RS-232, then it triggers the Z-Wave switches?

The reason I use Ocelot is simplicity, but also it receives IR nicely and I can control it with either an X-10 keypad or my Pronto remote.

Can you leave the X-10 in place and add Z-Wave slowly? I know they don't talk to each other, but can they exist together in the same environment?

 

[Herdfan]

She doesn't yet know that I want to drop huge $$ on HomeWorks, but my plan is to allocate $40K-$50K in the remodel to make it HA-friendly (totally redo current HV wiring, re-run 1st floor low-LV and run 2nd floor LV to a real central location, Homeworks switches).

Did you know that Homeworks does not "require" centralized wiring? You could do a 4 Series which is very similar to ALC (except it uses different wiring) and be able to control dimmers via the processor? Centralized wiring is great in theory, but many people like the feel of regular switches. Also, there is no non-standard wiring to have to deal with and the cost of a wired HW dimmer is $40 LESS that a RadioRA dimmer (MSRP of course). Wired keypads are cheaper as well. And if you ever move, you could take it with you.

You could do a wired HW 4 Series in new construction cheaper than you can do RadioRA as a retrofit. Once you get past the cost of the processor, everything is cheaper. Plus, the software makes programming a breeze.

Don't get too caught up on the notion of HW being "dealer only" either. Lutron has been recruiting sparkys left and right an allowing them to purchase HW through distribution vs. direct. So if you are willing to look a little, there will be a sparky willing to sell you what you want and make a nice profit.

 

[macromark]

mark since the cooper is basically just a rebranded ztroller can you get me the full ascii doc on it or would express controls give me it by chance. the doc i have from cooper is basic at best.

Just email me if you still need the protocol info.

 

[Neurorad]

Did you know that Homeworks does not "require" centralized wiring? You could do a 4 Series which is very similar to ALC (except it uses different wiring) and be able to control dimmers via the processor? Centralized wiring is great in theory, but many people like the feel of regular switches. Also, there is no non-standard wiring to have to deal with and the cost of a wired HW dimmer is $40 LESS that a RadioRA dimmer (MSRP of course). Wired keypads are cheaper as well. And if you ever move, you could take it with you.

Don't get too caught up on the notion of HW being "dealer only" either. Lutron has been recruiting sparkys left and right an allowing them to purchase HW through distribution vs. direct. So if you are willing to look a little, there will be a sparky willing to sell you what you want and make a nice profit.

Wow, didn't know this. Thanks, Herdfan.

Any links you care to share?

Edit - found a good one

Lutron Tech Ref Guide Rev H