Starting fresh in automation, security panel integration required

[HDClown]

I am looking to start new into some home automation.   I have no home automation today beyond ability to remotely control my security panel (see below for more detail).
 
Here's an initial list of things I want to do from an automation standpoint:

• Trigger on/off of lights based on if it's dark outside or not (sunrise/sunset as trigger?)
• Trigger on/off of lights based on if it's dark outside on zone violation and arm state of security panel
• Trigger on/off of lights based on motion detection trigger from security cameras
• Trigger security camera presets based on zone violation and arm state of security panel
• Grab screenshot from security cameras based on zone violation and arm state of security panel
• Remote control of lights home (both at and away from home, physical remotes needed in some instances)
• Remote control of security system (both at and away from home)
• Remote control of thermostat (both at and away from home)
• Remote control of garage door (Genie Xcellerator Screw-drive, wired into relay on security panel for remote triggering) - Planning to buy a new opener entirely in general, but nothing picked out yet
• Set thermostat based on security panel arm state
• Schedule based events
• Potential future integration into pool automation system (define pump/salt water generator schedule, remotely control valves) - Current controller is InterMatic MultiWave but open to changing this at some point, very low on my list.

Beyond the above, I'd imagine there is more I'll want to do in the future, but I haven't come up with those scenarios yet.
 
The entire house is LED lighting and dimming is needed in some areas and an obvious requirement is to have dimmers that don't make audible noises and can dim LED's appropriately. Currently I use all Lutron CL dimmers and they work perfectly.
 
I have a Vista 21iP system which I DIY installed and have fully monitored with TC2.0. I'm in a situation where I have a 2G communicator and I can't upgrade the add-on communicator due to incompatible panel firmware.  I don't want to add an external communicator so it means a bull board swap w/new communicator. Given that cost, I'm open to swapping out to a new panel.  Most of the house is wired but I do have some wireless Honeywell zones that would be nice to keep (3 windows, 2 smoke, 1 CO) in order to not have to re-buy that gear.
 
From a security camera standpoint, this will be new installation and the plan at the moment is to use all Hikvision cameras and NVR, but I'm also considering Dahua.  From what I've seen so far, both offer enough in the API to do the things I want to do as described above.  Note that I'm not expecting there to be an out-of-the-box point-n-click type integration for the cameras.  If I have to do some coding, that's fine, but I'm certainly interested to know if there are options in this space that may have more pre-built things.
 
Hoping to be pointed in the best direction in terms of what to do with my security panel scenario and what automation platform to buy into. We can assume a "no cost sensitivity" scenario for now.  I don't have unlimited budget, but I'd prefer to spend extra money to do it right and get the most flexibility over the long haul.
 

 

[Del91574]

Elk EZ8 or M1G with appropriate peripherals would be my suggestion.
 

Cameras would be 3rd party product.

 

[HDClown]

Are you suggesting doing all the automation on the Elk, as opposed to a hub of some sorts (ISY, HomeSeer, CQC, Vera, etc)?  I'm not overly familiar with the logic engine in Elk but it seems like it could directly handle what I need to do, at least for today. 
 
What's the general idea behind doing automation on an Elk/HAI vs. just offloading it all to an automation platform and just using the "security system" as a security system.
 
Any particular reason you suggest Elk over HAI?

 

[Dean Roddey]

Ouch, calling CQC a 'hub'. Them's fightin' words, Bubba   CQC crushes 10 hubs a day and doesn't even notice it  :rockon:

 

[pete_c]

Here have two OmniPro 2's and using Homeseer software.
 
The OmniPro 2 footprint is smaller than the ELK1.

 

[RAL]

Any particular reason you suggest Elk over HAI?

 
The Elk M1 will cost less for the base panel, and allows you to expand the system in increments that may match your needs better over time.  The OP2 starts off with the advantage that is has multiple serial ports, plus ethernet on the base panel, which partly accounts for the 2 to 3x higher cost.
 
Both the M1 and OP2 give you 16 zone inputs on the base panel.  The M1 has 10 outputs, and the OP2 has 8 outputs on the base panel.
 
As you grow the system, the M1 and OP2 both accept zone input expanders that add 16 zones each.  The downside is that the OP2 10A06-1 input expander board costs about 40% more than the Elk M1XIN. 
 
Once you've added two 10A06-1 expanders, the OP2 requires that you use 17A00 expansion boards.  These give you 16 more inputs AND 16 additional outputs at a cost of about $300.  If you don't need the additional outputs, you just bought a bunch of hardware you don't need.  Or if you want to add outputs, you have to buy the additional inputs, whether you need them or not.  With the Elk M1, the M1XIN adds only inputs, and the M1XOVR adds only outputs, so you can buy just what you need. If you want to compare apples to apples (well, as much as that is possible) the combination of the M1XIN plus M1XOVR will be about $250.  The M1XOVR includes 8 relay outputs, while the 17A00 does not.
 
The OP2 and M1 are both good panels.  Depending on your configuration needs, and how you might grow in the future, the M1 may give you better flexibility at a lower price.

 

[cobra]

Or you could get an HAI/Leviton Lumina, it's a mini OmniPro panel and can sometimes be found at 1/3 the price.  It's not designed for security, but if you have a security panel already that can work out.  It integrates with DSC panels also, but not sure about the Vista and the like.

 

[HDClown]

I don't see the Lumina making a lot of sense.  I ran some math and I could spend the same money overall with putting on a new external communicator on my Vista 21IP (to solve my 2G sunset issue), adding an AD2USB or Envisalink 4 and HomeSeer license/plugins and be able to have the Vista send Zone data to HomeSeer and have HomeSeer arm the Vista panel. That would accomplish the alarm integration angle I'm after, and give me an HS deployment.  
 
@RAL - Thanks for the info on the M1 vs OP2 pricing.  I ran some math and the M1EZ8K would require a zone expander to meet my current wired zone need, which puts it at the same price as just buying an M1GSYS4.  I like the voice announce on M1G anyway, so it would be an M1G + M1XEP, for about $620.  An OP2 is $1000.  I think an O2e at $700 (much closer to Elk price) would be adequate as well.  I don't see needing more than 8 outputs, which is the only concern I've have, but one never knows I suppose.  
 
Outside of price, what trade offs are there in functionality?  I've read that something Omni does that Elk doesn't in whole home audio, but I use Sonos, so that's not a concern.  Is there anything else like this to consider?
 
With my desire to do some integration with my cameras (alarm zone trigger PTZ preset and grab image, or camera motion send events to turn on lights, and similar), I'm going to need some form of hub/software in the mix.  So, I guess the question is, if i need an automation hub/software platform regardless, does that make Elk or HAI/Leviton better or worse?  

 

[Del91574]

Outputs come in VERY handy. The problem with the OP is unless you pay up front for the hardware, you're stuck with a hobbled panel with limited (albeit relative) expansion.
 
A hub or 3rd party software really isn't a huge deal depending on which form you end up going through.

 

[cobra]

Outputs come in VERY handy. The problem with the OP is unless you pay up front for the hardware, you're stuck with a hobbled panel with limited (albeit relative) expansion.
 
A hub or 3rd party software really isn't a huge deal depending on which form you end up going through.

How do you think it's hobbled?  Just curious.  I have a Lumina, and haven't used all the outputs yet.  I think I spent $400 on the base panel (although I'd have to check, it's been a while.)  It's got 5 serial ports built in that can be configured for ZWave/UPB/Lutron/a slew of other interfaces.
 
I guess it's a trade off?  You pay a little for the Elk, but then add a ton of expanders as you need base functionality?  Maybe those expanders are cheaper than HAI/Leviton?  Because you generally need to add an interface to talk each protocol on the HAI/Leviton panel as well.

 

[Del91574]

Lumina isn't a security panel. Can't compare apples to lettuce.
 
Look at the chart outlining the omni panels. Buy wrong, you're SOL. Determine you only need 8 keypads, but whatever item comes down the pike requires a KP address to interface (VERY common with 3rd party items). Already have the max, you're stuck. How about user codes? Zone expansion? Remember, RF is going to be a zone per device....very easy to hit 32 devices.
 
Elk, for example, you could buy an EZ8 and except for the voice and 8 zones, expand to essentially be the M1. M1 allows you to buy as you go, interface where you need to and put serial ports ANYWHERE on the data bus. Not possible with HAI.
 
You're also looking at 3X+ the price for the "convenience" of being able to expand your system out of the gate.

 

[picta]

I have both Elk MG and HAI Pro and they are very capable systems with 90% overlapping functionality. The 10% difference can sway people one way or the other,  Elk is more modular system, and it is a better security system than HAI mostly because of richer zones configuration. HAI is a better automation system as it can integrate with a lot more technologies and allows to mix various tech in one system. Outside that are minor details which can be more important for some than others. The choice of technology you want to integrate with can be a determinant as well. LED lights are not standard and if you want to have more confidence in performance of you lighting automation, I would look at RadioRA2 (and HAI would be a better choice of a controller then). If you go with say an Insteon, Elk may be a better option.

 

[Del91574]

For inherent lighting control/commands, I'd say HAI, same if you only wanted to take everything out of one box (or have audio integrated directly) however, with a $100 hub and a little work there's not much different between the M1 and HAI, but large differences on the sticker prices. They can pretty much integrate with the major players out there....how you accomplish what the granular details are is a different story.
 
In my case, as with many others, I've installed plenty of both. I'm more versed on the M1. I've put in more. I can't justify the sticker price unless it's part of the spec I'm handed.

 

[HDClown]

So far it seems like Elk may be a better choice for me.  Ultimately, if I get into ISY/CQC/HomeSeer (seem to be two most likely automation platforms I'd pick from), than I would potentially be offloading most automation to those platforms, and thus relying on the Elk mostly for security.  If Elk is more "security first, automation second" where as HAI is the otherway around, then I'd rather pick Elk under that mindset.  But, I want to dig a little further into some specifics on the automation side, as it seems like I could initially get buy without an extra hub/software platform.
 
I know I'm not doing any whole home audio or RadioRA2, and I don't see using CentraLite either, which eliminates a lot of the popular reasons I see people say pick HAI.  It's undetermined if I wiill do UPB, Z-Wave or Insteon as a primary player for lighting/outlet control 
 
I'm seeing HAI and Insteon are not a great match.  You can only get X10 communication off the panel to Insteon, but Elk and Insteon are a good match.using a PLM+M1XSP or ISY994i (I'll have an M1XEP regardless).
 
When comparing Z-Wave and UPB between HAI and Elk, I'm not finding a clear winner. Both panels require you to buy an additional module to use either of these standards, so that seems to be a wash.  I haven't yet read anything that says there is any difference between HAI/Elk as far as Z-Wave is concerned, is there?
 
On the UPB side, I'm aware of HLC and it's ability to track status across Links, but I'm not clear if there is a way to do this with Elk.  I've read about using Simply Automated devices and UPStart but still not clear on that.  Is there some way for Elk+UPB to get full tracking with Links, or is this a differentiating factor between HAI and Elk for UPB?  Is there anything else that differentiates the two for UPB?
 
Anything else to consider specifically around UPB/Z-wave between HAI/Elk, or any other product standards?

 

[pete_c]

Here went with the HAI OmniPro 2 panel in one home due to given space (not much) and WAF.  It is compact (a bit too much maybe).
 
I had already implemented / installed the in wall switches before hand and then did the security stuff baby steps and not a primary requirement.  IE: It was first music / multimedia, then automation of just lighting and finally security.  That said all of the wires were pre run and I really had much time to implement / connect the security stuff.
 
Here today I utilize Homeseer with my OmniPro 2 stuff.  Relating to consoles always tinkering.  I do not tinker at all with the HAI consoles but I do and can create custom consoles with the Homeseer software.  I did not here put all of my hardware resources to one automation protocol as I am still one on the fence having started initially with X10.  The panel today talks to hard wired sensors (that'll never change), X10, UPB (all of my in wall switches), Z-Wave and Zigbee.  The software talks to more stuff that I tinker with. 
 
The stuff connected to the panel just works and I do not think about it.  Tinkering with new stuff with Homeseer (well like Alexa and Echo) right now. 
 
Here's an initial list of things I want to do from an automation standpoint....
 
You can do that and more with the aforementioned combination security / automation panels.
 
Adding software integration to the two panels you can get more options relating to consoles (in house or just remote controlling everything with much eye candy). 
 
Here mostly see the mention of CQC (with author always answering questions) and Homeseer.  Well too the mention of open source automation software like HomeGenie and openHAB (there is more).