Status update on my software decision - scale tipping to Cinemar...

[Ranger Digital]

Dan, you said that real well! Thanks for taking it the right way. And of course, there will be issues outside of softare that will need to be tackled. I have a huge learning curve no matter what way we go. I am prepared for that and committed.

PS. I actually hope to get to a point where I want and need CQC as that would only mean we are doing more sophisiticated installs. Looking forward to that day my friend.

 

[shenandoah75]

David, as discussed, appears that reinstalling the client side of music lobby on both clients did the trick... (again, i know this had been previously installed on the first client and working, so not 100% what happened there)

Anyway, working and i'm happy...

some minor issues if anyone has time to chip in:



1) one of the cool things on promixis's offerings is that users share their skins on the website. Does the graffix library licensing prevent this for ML? I've seen a few screenshots i would really love to take advantage of over the defualt "19" scense.

2) elk arming button send a default code of 3456 - where is this set? The MlServer command is simply Security.Away rather than the full text as detailed in the elk plugin wiki details. Obviously i can replace that, just curious.. I also tried the command removing the last argument for passcoce (i.e. just ~1~1 for away as i do not require a passcode to armmy system). But ML didn't seem to like that... (didn't like ending with just a "~" either)

3) more importantly, i don't want a burglar able to go to this screen and click disarm... I really want to prompt for the passcode. What's best way to design for that (at a high level)? thinking i could do something like the search popup for music lobby, limiting to a numeric keypad layout...

4) i have two A/C units in my house. I've copied the thermostat page and set the commands/variables to TSTAT2 (similar to elk default aarming, i had to fully qualify the MLserver commands to get this to work as temp.coolsetpointinc no longer was recognized for some reason - just fyi)... But what's best way to switch context here. I'd rather not add a new button to navigation menu, but instead have context switcher/LOV on the first temp scene page itself where i can choose between the two thermostats scenes (both ways). Assuming i can put a button to lauch the other scene (or up/down, left/right buttons next to the field), but would rather have drop down if possible - not sure if that's possible.

5) for the floorplans, i've looked at the cinemar forums and after i get the jpeg/swf ready, i'm curious how in the default lighting scene, you got the rectangular bottons to take on the odd shapes for shading? I don't see jpages, etc linked to them directly, but am fascinated...



thx
-brad

 

[dgeffs]

Isn't it amazing how so many people can look at two different products and come to the exact opposite conclusion. This is not to put down ML because it is a fine product and I am an owner. I just found CQC much easier to understand, program and get things up and running much faster than ML. The more standard interface doesn't hurt either. If I gave you an example of my experience with both you would think I'm an idiot or a shill for CQC which certainly isn't the case on the later although the former is up for debate.

The biggest problem I found with CQC was the graphics library. Compared to ML it is very hard to remember exactly where each widget is found in the folder structure and ML makes this very simply by presenting the graphics on screen in fewer locations. ML makes it much easier for a newbie to find graphics. Aside from that my experience with getting an interface up and running and doing things as I think they should be done, including overlays, is that CQC was much easier to learn and implement by a large factor and with no programming or command line entries. I program for a living and I want something incredibly simple to use for myself.

Isn't it great we have multiple excellent products to choose from in this arena.

 

[shenandoah75]

well - i haven't touched the cqc UI portions yet, only the backend plugins/engine... that's on target for this weekend / next week if i can the time... I need to sit down and look at those tutorials they offer first and looking at IVB's findings and see what i can do - i hope you're right (though the decision would become muddier again)

So let me qualify my original commentary... That should be taken mainly in the light of ML vs NetRemote/Girder from UI point of view ... From that perspective, i still believe building UI with ML is more intuitive and easier. That said, i like NetRemote's default media UIs much. much more than ML's... just seem more rebust - esp the "flatstyle" one ( i do not like having to go to options button to access things and i like having the e/q everything tight in front of me. Since the main purpose will be A/V control, that's not a trivial distinction...

Additionally, on the backend, i think they are all comperable. The one exception is that proximis is lacking ready-to-go plugins out of the box -specifically Elk (which i intend to integrate with for HVAC, security, lighting, output control of everything but A/V). Pricewise, is that worth the increase (or cqc for that matter) when as per Harleydude's posts over at promixis' forums i know i could ultimately get the same functionality working? That's personal choice (which i agree is the great thing in all this - long live competition and capitalism) but i lean towards my own conclusion that it is. If promixis released a full featured plugin (allowing access to all elk's features) that was ready to go like they seem to have for HAI, that might make the choice more difficult.

 

[DavidL]

1) one of the cool things on promixis's offerings is that users share their skins on the website. Does the graffix library licensing prevent this for ML? I've seen a few screenshots i would really love to take advantage of over the defualt "19" scense.

You can share your scenes (.mls files) with others, but you cannot share the graphical libraries. If you develop a scene using an optional library, and someone else wants to reuse your scene, they would have to purchase the graphical library and do a quick install (30 seconds) and relaunch MainLobby client and be able to use your scene.


2) elk arming button send a default code of 3456 - where is this set? The MlServer command is simply Security.Away rather than the full text as detailed in the elk plugin wiki details. Obviously i can replace that, just curious.. I also tried the command removing the last argument for passcoce (i.e. just ~1~1 for away as i do not require a passcode to armmy system). But ML didn't seem to like that... (didn't like ending with just a "~" either)

You can create a password scene. Brand new with the very soon to be released Mainlobby3 server is the ability to create invisible variables. This might come into hand with doing what you are asking. This was the reason why this new ability has been added.


3) more importantly, i don't want a burglar able to go to this screen and click disarm... I really want to prompt for the passcode. What's best way to design for that (at a high level)? thinking i could do something like the search popup for music lobby, limiting to a numeric keypad layout...

yes, this is why we added the inviso variable. Originally it was added for locking / unlocking of DVD movies from access and viewing. In that example, the password keypad slides in. You type your passcode on the touchscreen and click Submit. The verification is done, and if True, you are good to go to look at your locked movies on that PC, for the time that scene is onscreen. Once navigating away from that scene, the collection is relocked again for that client. Note that the collection remains locked for all other clients during this time. One example. This will be out shortly and can be used as a tutorial for security systems, callerid scenes, whatever.


4) i have two A/C units in my house. I've copied the thermostat page and set the commands/variables to TSTAT2 (similar to elk default aarming, i had to fully qualify the MLserver commands to get this to work as temp.coolsetpointinc no longer was recognized for some reason - just fyi)... But what's best way to switch context here. I'd rather not add a new button to navigation menu, but instead have context switcher/LOV on the first temp scene page itself where i can choose between the two thermostats scenes (both ways). Assuming i can put a button to lauch the other scene (or up/down, left/right buttons next to the field), but would rather have drop down if possible - not sure if that's possible.

you would do this via a MLCycleStates entry. You would set a variable state with each press of a button (Thermostat1 / Thermostat2 / Thermostat3, etc) and then your buttons would be constructed to use this variable value as the means to view data for that thermo and send commands to that thermo. I have an example of this as it relates to selection of which PC to play a movie (HTPC1 / HTPC2 / HTPC3, etc.). I will hunt for a link in the wiki docs (probalby MLtheatertek plugin description).

5) for the floorplans, i've looked at the cinemar forums and after i get the jpeg/swf ready, i'm curious how in the default lighting scene, you got the rectangular bottons to take on the odd shapes for shading? I don't see jpages, etc linked to them directly, but am fascinated...

You are looking at custom generated flash graphics that can have unique shapes. Part of the nice thing about flash. Cinemar provides building these custom floorplans as a pro service. You can do that yourself, but it takes a little to get the photoshop stuff right. There is a fee app to convert graphics to flash files avaiable from Cinemar.

Glad to hear you are getting things rolling!

 

[IVB]

well - i haven't touched the cqc UI portions yet, only the backend plugins/engine... that's on target for this weekend / next week if i can the time... I need to sit down and look at those tutorials they offer first and looking at IVB's findings and see what i can do - i hope you're right (though the decision would become muddier again)

If you can delay your decision by a few weeks, Dean's gotten some very interesting stuff developed already for V2.2. (auto-gen of media screens is what would appeal to you). Not sure when it's going to go to Beta, but given that in the past 5.5 months there's already been 2 patch releases and 1 minor release, each of which contained a serious amount of functionality, i'm sure it's not terribly far off.

Unless there's something pressing forcing you to make a decision soon, of course.

 

[shenandoah75]

Ya i want to play more with all three for sure... no major rush

 

[Steve]

shen, I am leaning towards mainlobby as well. I am convinced that CQC may be the most stable on the market and extremely flexible and likel the right choice for the highest end of HA, but for me the initial ease of main lobby and the impression it can make in a sales presentation (which cqc can do to but only after a huge learning curve and hours of programming) leans me to do mainlobby.

Yes, this thread simply proves what I always say - that you must try all the products and choose the one that 'fits' you best. The only thing I did want to clear up is that there is zero programming required to build a CQC interface. My system does alot of things and I did not write a single line of code. If you are spending hours programming its only if you are writing a driver in CML for a specific device. You can completely configure drivers and build an interface with no programming, mostly just point and click. I don't want to over simplify it either, but I also don't want people to have an impression you need to be a programmer to use it either.

 

[shenandoah75]

OK i've finally played a little with the CQC interface editor and i must say, not all that bad and fairly intuitive. I've got some simple dynamic text, etc working (including elk armed staus, current temp)...

Main thing i want to play with is the elk ethernet driver. in terms of CML, i don't see a guide for CML, examples... specifically how do i use MEng.System.CQC.Drivers.ELKM1 scope when i want to issue commands? IVB , maybe in your session (haven't checked yet) - if so i can scroll :unsure: But lets say i want to fire an action. Maybe macro workshop, but i don't see anything under "cmd" on a command button?

i'd prefer a doc over video tutorial here, but will do those if i need to...


thx
-brad




one additional comment, as a developer it's very frustrating CQC doesn't follow general windows deveopment guidelines in some areas
1) the shortcut letters are not underscored as they should be in the menus
2) although they work, if i access file menu, E accesses Exit - the standard is X (T should access cut in the edit menu)
3) outside of the editor, the menus are not standard at all (session/administer/etc roots instead of file/edit/view/tools/help)


I am not trying to disrepect Dean here. and by all means, CQC is not the only producer guilty of this - Alt+E/F doesn't execute edit/find on many forums / webpages (including this one!) as another example...

CORRECTION: Alt+F doesn't access file in this webpage... It's the ALT+E that doesnt acces the edit menu in all the wiki based pages i've been in


But there are gui standards for windows and you should follow them... Power users generally use key strokes not mouse navigation when possible and doing your own thing here doesn't help productivity when somone has to learn different strokes for your apps (specially when alt-tabbing between them). This may seem like a minor thing, but it's the minor details that often make the difference in software, Especially in something costing a consumer several fold what i can get Quicken for off the shelf... Will that alone prevent me from purchasing, no... but going with a windows-only ported product is tough enough for me, going with one which cost several times what Promixis's offerings cost (their menus are in compliance) and charges an annual fee on top of this may take some additional convincing/demoing from IVB given the above... Taking shortcuts on basic ui, how do i know other areas weren't rushed through as well? Given the positive reviews, probably not... but :lol:

then again, the fact i don't have to figure out how to build SWF files for rich media control as i think i need to do in ML, may offset that once i figure it out...

 

[DavidL]

You do not need to know anything about flash with MainLobby other than it looks good :unsure:

You Add a new Image by clicking the Image button in the MainLobby Client drop down Menu. You then navigate to the graphic of your choice and click OK. There, you have an image on your state that you can now resize / rotate / relocate / assign functions to when you click it, etc. This is essentially what the other packages you are looking at do.

You can also create flash buttons using the SWFGenerator
http://www.cinemaronline.com/mainlobby.tools.html
About as easy as it gets to create buttons that have up / down / hover states just by putting paths to corresponding graphics in the tool and clicking OK.

If you really jump in and want to exploit more of the benefits of Flash, well, that's not quite as easy. But, this is not supported in any of the other choices so this is just plus benefits. We do have some power users and dealers that go this far, but it's really not needed, but possible if you want to dive in.

 

[shenandoah75]

But my problem is that i want the dynamic selection for music from jriver... How am i going to get dynamic hierarchies / lists, etc with static images?

Honestly, your default scene for music lobby is what i see as the one shortcoming. I want something more :unsure: I'm not just talking about moving around control icons, i don't like the swf's used in the two panes at all to display now playing / playlists.

Sorry - i ackowledge that i'm picky but this is my purchase's #1 purpose and i want the music (and eventually video) piece to be really impressive and easier to use Drop something like that netremote skin i noted previously in there and i think i'd be ready to buy

 

[robertmee]

OK i've finally played a little with the CQC interface editor and i must say, not all that bad and fairly intuitive. I've got some simple dynamic text, etc working (including elk armed staus, current temp)...

Main thing i want to play with is the elk ethernet driver. in terms of CML, i don't see a guide for CML, examples... specifically how do i use MEng.System.CQC.Drivers.ELKM1 scope when i want to issue commands? IVB , maybe in your session (haven't checked yet) - if so i can scroll :unsure: But lets say i want to fire an action. Maybe macro workshop, but i don't see anything under "cmd" on a command button?

i'd prefer a doc over video tutorial here, but will do those if i need to...

Not sure what you're after here, but did you read this on the Elk: http://www.charmedquark.com/Web/Learn/Devi...Panels/EkM1.htm

The Elk driver is one that requires some additional set up using the Client side interface. Once you have your fields defined, you will see them in the point/click menus for adding actions, etc. If you are not familiar with that part, go to the Admin Interface and Click on the Client Administrator (I think 2nd Icon from the top right). Here you will Add the ELK Client side configurator. Once Added, open it up and go to town adding your fields. There's only a very few drivers that require this step. The reason for this step in the ELK is that it isn't efficient to create ALL the fields since everyone's application varies so widely. So the client interface let's you define only what you need.

 

[IVB]

Main thing i want to play with is the elk ethernet driver. in terms of CML, i don't see a guide for CML, examples... specifically how do i use MEng.System.CQC.Drivers.ELKM1 scope when i want to issue commands? IVB , maybe in your session (haven't checked yet) - if so i can scroll :unsure: But lets say i want to fire an action. Maybe macro workshop, but i don't see anything under "cmd" on a command button?

Ack! CML bad, simple is good! Seriously, you're way too used to other packages if you think you need anything other than point&click to do stuff. I've never used CML ever to do anything. No need for macro's given that new action dialog stuff.

I could either take 10 posts to walk you through this, or do a gotomeeting on it. i'm almost ready to call work "done" for the next 10 days, ping back here if you want a walkthrough this evening.

I guarantee that in 4minutes of a gotomeeting, you'll be able to see how to add actions to do whatever you want.

And, i'll have to do it on *your* machine and help you set it up as I just turned off my Elk and started pulling the wires out as part of my re-do.

 

[shenandoah75]

Ya i had that part and i've added for example TSTAT 1/2, outputs, lighting. I can see the relevant variables in dynamic text... And i can see it in appropriate widgets (i.e. output in checkbox)...

I guess my bigger question, is what if i want a command button to cntrols an output for example (instead of a checkbox or inc/dec button). Maybe i just put an image on the checkbox and thus it's really not a checkbox at all looking at the widget? (if so, it's another annoying thing - checkbox means something to me, in other tools, and in gui design, it is not a catchall term for any widget representing true/false or on/off)

(agree with ivb, my developer mindset appears to be hindering me

thx - i think you just answered it - i'll keep playing...
-brad

 

[robertmee]

Ya i had that part and i've added for example TSTAT 1/2, outputs, lighting. I can see the relevant variables in dynamic text... And i can see it in appropriate widgets (i.e. output in checkbox)...

I guess my bigger question, is what if i want a command button to cntrols an output for example (instead of a checkbox or inc/dec button). Maybe i just put an image on the checkbox and thus it's really not a checkbox at all looking at the widget?

thx - i think you just answered it - i'll keep playing...
-brad

You can do a command button no problem... Just go to the on-click (or on push) action, select command, devices, field write, and point to your ELK driver and the field you want to change.