Suggested HA lighting (friend building a home)

[drvnbysound]

New construction - why not hardwired access control, with the Elk? Skip the wireless door locks altogether.

I think batteries are a PITA, anyway.

I haven't read much about it, but RA2 can supposedly integrate well with Elk.

Hardwired lighting control, with category cable to the switches, is very appealing. ALC should have been a winner. I think Centralite can be wired in this fashion, but unsure.

Do you have any specific suggestions that I should look into?

Re: the batteries. As mentioned earlier, I have Kwikset locks now, and so far I only have to change the batteries about every 4-6 months. It's not that big of a deal [to me] for the convenience they provide. I've also done a considerable amount of research on AA batteries anyway - for photography purposes, and I've got a pretty decent number of rechargeables that I just rotate. Nonetheless, it's certainly a consideration that he will have to make as well.

 

[drvnbysound]

I actually just took a look at the drawing he sent me, and I was wrong earlier... He showed me both the dimensional drawing and the electrical drawing in person, but I thought he emailed me the dimensional drawing - he actually sent the electrical drawing. Nonetheless, the home will be a single-story, 5-br home. It's a fairly open, split floor plan - I'd guess approx. 2500sq ft. I just counted ALL of the electrical switches in the current version of the floor plan, and there are 41. I don't know if they will actually want ALL of them controlled or not, but I don't think this number should present any sort of an issue regardless of the technology. I'm actually more surprised with the number of 3-way switches - 12 (included in the 41 above).

 

[drvnbysound]

I just pulled up the CentraLite website... I realize there are a couple of different product lines, but I'm pretty certain that I've heard the most about the JetStream line. I downloaded the Installation and Programming Guide for JetStream and realized that it's also a wireless technology. I also know that Lutron's Radio RA2 is also wireless. I understand that both of these are basically proprietary technologies, and may very well be more robust system in terms of reliability, responsiveness, etc. However, they also suffer from being proprietary and being limited to the devices from a single manufacturer... as well as (likely) limited support from anyone other than dealers/integrators (obviously not confirmed).

Based on a comment above, it sounds that ALC may be no more (??). UPB is definitely another option, and it obviously doens't require any special wiring (i.e. LV cables to be installed at each switch). Are there any other technologies that should be considered, or is that about it? Are there any other wired systems?

 

[picta]

The JetStream line has a zigbee product called Azelia. If you want a hard-wired system, take a look at Elegance.

 

[drvnbysound]

The JetStream line has a zigbee product called Azelia. If you want a hard-wired system, take a look at Elegance.

That's what I thought. I'll talk to him about it, but I doubt he wants to go with a centralized-load lighting system. Particularly one that he probably can't service/support himself.

 

[picta]

No, the hard wired system is probably not suitable. But Azelia has one of the easiest interfaces to set up and maintain the system, and should be compatible with other zigbee devices. Definitely worth a look.

 

[signal15]

I tried Insteon and wasn't happy with it. I was going to then go with UPB. But then I bought a Vera which supports Z-wave. I've only got 5 switches and one lock installed now, but I have the Elk plugin so it's using all of my elk sensors also (about 40 of them). I'm pretty happy with the Z-wave, but the lock on the service door on the far side of my garage has signal problems. I've installed a Z-wave switch in the bathroom above as a relay point, but it's still not great signal. I may have to get a lamp controller and put it in the middle of one of the walls in the upper bedroom (BR is 30 feet wide).

The nice thing about Z-wave is there are a ton of companies making it, you can buy stuff at Lowes in a pinch (the GE 3-way on/off switch combo is actually a great deal there at $44 since if you don't use the 3-way, you can reuse it on a dimmer down the road).

Honestly, since I now have the Vera, I would probably opt NOT to put in the Elk and to just put in a security only system like DSC. Vera talks to the DSC and is able to use its sensors, and I have my Vera handling all of my HA tasks now with the exception of the garage doors that still require the use of the Elk output relay board. But, you can get 3rd party relay modules/boxes that will work with the Vera so you wouldn't need to do that.

As far as my signal issue with the lock, it works fine when no cars are in the garage. But when I put both cars in is when I have trouble. I may be able to put in a manual Z-wave route to fix it instead of putting in a lamp module.

Oh, and as someone else said, make sure the builder puts a neutral in EVERY switch box. My house was completed in 2008, and I have neutrals in some of the boxes but not all. I think as of 2011, the NEC requires it. But you'll want to double check and make sure the electrical contractor doesn't skimp.

 

[drvnbysound]

Interesting regarding the electrical. My home was completed in 2008 and I know it has neutrals in every box. I don't know that I've seen new construction in the past 8 or so years that hasn't had a neutral in every box... Maybe it's just the contractors in our area, but all of the wiring I have seen for standard circuits are 12/2 (hot + neutral + ground) and 14/3 (2 hot's + neutral + ground) for ceiling fans w/ lights (so that each can be controlled separately), and 14/2 for most other lighting circuits... obviously larger gauge wiring for things like water heater, A/C, etc.

 

[picta]

I tried Insteon and wasn't happy with it. I was going to then go with UPB. But then I bought a Vera which supports Z-wave. I've only got 5 switches and one lock installed now, but I have the Elk plugin so it's using all of my elk sensors also (about 40 of them). I'm pretty happy with the Z-wave, but the lock on the service door on the far side of my garage has signal problems. I've installed a Z-wave switch in the bathroom above as a relay point, but it's still not great signal. I may have to get a lamp controller and put it in the middle of one of the walls in the upper bedroom (BR is 30 feet wide).

Well, as you say, you only have 5 switches. I was also very happy with zwave when I had my first 10 devices. I got 10 more, and after many hours of frustration, I dumped the technology in favor of centralite. Part of the problem may have been using non top-of-the-line most expensive switches as Visa RF. I think the problem is inherent in the retail oriented products business model that assumes many customers will only use a handful of switches. For a larger install you need to look into commercial grade, if you want a reliable system that does not require a live-in technician.

As for the lock, I am guilty to admit that I have 2 z-wave kwiksets. A few weeks ago I had integrated them with my OP2. I bought high quality dimmers to provide the beaming devices and installed vrc0p in between the locks location for the best performance. I also had Leviton installer software, all together a very expensive package, but it took me many hours before I got everything to work. I really cannot imagine how the pro installers can use this stuff in big houses. I had to get within 1 foot of each device I was working with (and many many times as nothing would just work from the first try; re-enroll devices, re-establish associations, re-optimize the network etc etc). The other day I had a power outage. My zwave network just quit. I had to do this all over again, and that reminded me why I had to give up zwave in the past. However this is just my experience, I would love to hear a success story from someone who is able to successfully use zwave in a large application (50+ devices).

 

[drvnbysound]

Interesting data point for sure. I believe I mentioned above that I currently have a Zwave network (though only about 12-14 devices). I've had them setup as a stand-alone network for around a year, and haven't had any issues. It was recently (within the past 2 months) that I got my Elk setup, with the M1XSLZW and VRCOP. I didn't have any issues with getting any of it setup... everything continues to work as expected. My only complaint is that the devices I have now (GE)... which do support beaming for the locks, don't automatically report their status back to the VRCOP. On the other hand, the Leviton Vizia devices report back their status automatically (ie in the event that the switch was controlled locally) but they don't support the security class.... However, knowing that now, I plan to maintain (and add) GE receptacles so that I continue to have a good mesh that supports the locks, and swap out my existing dimmers with the Vizia ones, where I care about their status.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Part of the issue is almost certainly that, in a typical simple system, they are installing some modules and using a remote control to control them. It's all one way, no associations required, and the Z-Wave network is almost completely idle almost all the time. When they need to turn something off or on, they press a button on the remote and it sends out the command a few times redundantly to make sure it gets there (hopefully) and that's that. In that sort of simple situation, there are probably considerably fewer issues.

But for a real automation system, you need two way feedback. That means you either poll, and the Z-Wave network is not very robust when the load goes up, or you use async notifications if you have units that support them, but the are done via multi-casts which are not guaranteed delivery, so the automation system doesn't know if it's missed any or not, so it still ultimately has to poll just in case.

It's that requirement for two way control that really makes Z-Wave an iffy technology for anything more ambitious. It can work, but it's much more situationally dependent, as is anything that's not pro level generally. Same types of issues crop up for UPB as well. Not sure about Zigbee which is a considerably more advanced type of system.

 

[edge]

I dunno, If I were doing it again, I would run cat5 to every switch. Like Pitca noted above, hardwired is true reliablity. I didn't have much success with UPB due to noise and various commands would be hit or miss, thus did an ALC retrofit........a bit of pain and suffering, but no complaints and rock solid since the install.

 

[dgage]

It is comments like these about Zwave and UPB that lead me to look at something more robust but I'd prefer not to run retrofit wiring for lighting control in my house. Right now I am strongly considering RadioRA 2 as a fairly robust radio based retrofit technology. HAI and Elk have support for RadioRA 2 but HA software doesn't seem to have drivers. However, the commands to turn on/off lights and get status are pretty easy text commands and Lutron has documented the protocol. One problem with RadioRA 2 is that you need their software and you have to go through some training (BLAST) hoops to get access to that software.

David

 

[tmbrown97]

I'm still running about 70 UPB devices here - never an issue; never a failed transmit. I have to run two inverting phase couplers (Simply Automated) but with them both in place, I never have any problems. And I never dealt with a fraction of the pain I read about with Z-Wave and the re-training, etc.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Part of the thing that makes it so hard to call is that some people have no problems and others do, with the same technologies. You can read plenty of people's woes with UPB and you read people who have Z-Wave setups and don't have issues. These pro-sumer type solutions are apparently just more situationally sensitive, so you might have no issues you might have issues. And the problem is you won't know until you have commited to it enough to find out.

I guess at least with the more upper-crusty solutions is that you can be pretty sure you won't have issues, and if you do there's only one vendor to communicate with (aka yell at) about it to try to figure it out.