Suggested HA lighting (friend building a home)

[dgage]

She's probably following the mantra, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

Pseudo back on topic since it really isn't my topic but I'll share anyway. I believe I'm 95% decided that I will go with Lutron's RadioRA 2 (RadioRA2) solution for lighting (maybe sensors and thermostats later). We're remodeling the kitchen so I will need a solution soon and that should give me some time to jump through the hoops to get access to the RadioRA 2 software. There really isn't much information out there about RadioRA 2 but almost everything I read in terms of functionality was very complimentary and I didn't read anything negative about the system itself. The main negative was the dealer oriented nature of Lutron's distribution, which puts limitations on software distribution.

Here is what I like about RadioRA 2 and why I chose it.
* Two-way protocol tracks status to make sure lights turn on (Zwave and UPB don't have this two-way feedback loop). This directly reflects to reliability and should make RadioRA 2 much more reliable than other technologies with no feedback. I would say RadioRA 2 has the potential to be more reliable than any lighting control system except hard wired.
* Hybrid dimmer that will control local load AND you can pick which keypad button controls local load. Others I've seen use top button only for local load. Choosing the button allows for consistent keypad button order where a room has more than 1 keypad.
* Lutron seems to be actively adding devices (functionality?) such as the soon to be released fan controller. Other technologies are not active except for Zwave (maybe Zigbee but not much in lighting yet).
* One company to contact for support if lighting isn't working.
* Switches are nice and similarly priced to many other technologies with only a slight premium. Can match switches perfectly with regular (non-HA) switches. More options for switches and other devices compared to many technologies.
* Lutron has a reputation for making quality products and the original RadioRA has been in production and supported for over 15 years. RadioRA 2 addresses some shortcomings of RadioRA 1 so I would expect it to be around and supported for just as long and if so, that will make me very happy. If I look at a technology and see that it really isn't being supported then I will likely pass, which is why UPB was crossed off my list.

What I don't like abut RadioRA 2.
* Lutron pushes a dealer model so you have to jump through hoops to get access to their software (lookup BLAST training). Note that this is Level 1 and will get you access to their software with the ability to integrate up to 100 RadioRA 2 devices. If you want to go up to the maximum of 200 devices, you will need to be Level 2 certified, which requires a 2-day training course onsite with Lutron. Needless to say, I plan to stay under 100 RadioRA 2 devices.
* HA software (Homeseer, CQC, Elve) and most HA controllers don't have drivers to control RadioRA 2 directly. HAI has built-in control, just need to hook a serial cable between HAI and the RadioRA 2 Main Repeater. Elk has an add-on module that will interface with RadioRA 2 but definitely adds some expense.

Please let me know if any of my statements are inaccurate so I can correct them. Thanks.

David

 

[drvnbysound]

Re: the 2-way status feedback... The Leviton ViziaRF+ switches do this now, along with the Cooper Aspire line (see Homeseer's Comparison here - reference the "Supports Instant Status" feature). This is part of my hangup with my currently installed Zwave network. I picked up the GE/Jasco ones cheap (e.g. $25ea) during the RadioShack sellout - they don't support the automatic feedback, so I'm considering switching my dimmers/switches to LevitonRF+, while leaving my GE/Jasco receptacles to maintain devices throughout my network that support beaming for my locks.

I also thought UPB devices (at least the HAI ones) supported 2-way/automatic feedback... no?

 

[neillt]

Yeah, HAI and Simply Automated UPB devices do feedback... but you have to turn it on via UPStart. This could also really make a mess of the network if you do a large scene (say all on) and then you have a mess of dimmers trying to feedback their new status. It basically renders the network unusable for a while (say 30 seconds to a minute) before it all settles down.

It's my number 1 complaint about UPB, and now that I just moved into a new house I am also considering whether I should go with UPB like I have done in the past, or bite the bullet and go RadioRA 2. If Leviton didn't make it so damn hard to get software and product it would be a much easier decision. But since I can just go down the street to Home Controls here in San Diego and get whatever UPB device I want, it's an extremely compelling argument to stick with it.

 

[dgage]

For the two-way feedback, I was referring to Dean's post #26 but now that I reread it, he mentions Zwave and UPB have the two-way communication but it is multicast, not guaranteed delivery, and network can get (easily) saturated. Thanks for the correction.

David

 

[tmbrown97]

Yeah, HAI and Simply Automated UPB devices do feedback... but you have to turn it on via UPStart. This could also really make a mess of the network if you do a large scene (say all on) and then you have a mess of dimmers trying to feedback their new status. It basically renders the network unusable for a while (say 30 seconds to a minute) before it all settles down.

That's not quite accurate. UPB devices don't send status after being activated by a link specifically for that reason... because the switches have no way of knowing if 2 or 256 devices were activated; for that reason UPB never sends a status update after being updated via a link. That said, all the software solutions get around this by learning the links and after one is activated, querying every switch affected to get the new status. HAI has their HLC mode with will also query affected switches.

 

[Dean Roddey]

I just got a small Radio RA2 system set up here to start working on a CQC driver.

 

[dgage]

Damn. And I missed your October sale. Are you going to have a Christmas sale?

Thanks for adding it to CQC, I'm looking forward to it.

David

 

[Dean Roddey]

We generally have one sale in the spring (usually President's Day) and another in the fall. And since we just had one, it would probably be too soon to do another for Xmas.

 

[dgage]

Thanks Dean. I look forward to getting the RadioRA2 setup in my kitchen first before expanding to the rest of the house. I look forward to your adding a driver to CQC for RadioRA 2 as it seems like a real nice HA software package.

David

 

[ddennerline]

Normal Z-Wave communication is not multicast; although a controller can send a command using multi-cast. In this case, the command packet will not be routed by slaves. I don’t know of any controller that uses the multi-cast option as it’s not too reliable. As etc6849 mentions in another post, Z-Wave slave will try different routes to reach its destination node; although packet may ultimately fail or take way too long.

Radio RA is a good technology (http://blog.dsientertainment.com/audio-video-home-theater-automation/bid/53575/Why-I-Love-My-Lutron-RadioRA-2-System), and in fact preceded Z-Wave (http://www.cepro.com/article/lutron_radiora_2_a_new_era_of_wireless_home_control/). It’s believed that Leviton pays Lutron a licensing fee for two-way feedback patent. I think the challenge will be getting DYI support and you will have to pay non-dealer pricing. This means switches are 30-40% more expensive than comparable ProSumer UPB or Z-Wave switches.

One of the more attractive features of RadioRA is native shade support. The Somphy shades requires an expensive gateway along with custom installation.

The Leviton RF Toolkit software is free and VR-USB can be purchased from many CocoonTech vendors.

 

[Dean Roddey]

So Z-Wave units don't use a multi-cast to do async reporting? I thought they did, explaining the common lack of reliability of them. And, given the low data rate, having to send a single cast to five or more other units within some reasonable amount of time just didn't seem very likely to me.

We use multi-cast polling of basic units, which I saw other folks doing and that gave me the idea to do it. If we have more than one basic unit ready to poll, we just send out a multi-cast poll message so that we don't have to put so much load on the network sending the same message redundantly. No acknowledge is provided but it's not required for a poll, since ultimately all we care about is that the current value eventually shows up or not.

I can't imagine that multi-casts are not passed on by slaves, since that would effectively make it useless in many cases and I can't imagine they'd have gone through the trouble of supporting it if so. It's well documented as an available feature in the Z-Wave SDK.

 

[ddennerline]

I had some terminology mixed up in previous post.... You're correct that multi-cast packets should be routed the same as unicast/singlecast with exception that multicast packets do not provide confirmation.

LumenLink had an option to send a “turn all lights off” option. When I used this option, only about 50% of my lights would actually turn off. I believe this option tagged frame as broadcast. If I created a Z-wave group that included the same number of lights and activated the group, the reliability was nearly 99%; although the status for all lights was not correct. I believe this ‘GR’ command uses multi-cast. When the follow-on "UP" command was issued, the responses that came back were not always consistent - some nodes seemed to have higher level of difficult sending back their status.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/43883150/z-wave
http://books.google.com/books?id=yGRW-6tlHRAC&pg=PT191&lpg=PT191&dq=z-wave+multi-cast&source=bl&ots=3R3zVDVE_h&sig=uF1_YGCZHlVR03I7tAbaq14THAE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lSy3UNjwEcm30QHus4DABw&ved=0CF4Q6AEwCDgK
http://www.drdobbs.com/embedded-systems/catching-the-z-wave/193104353

I don’t imagine Z-Wave network could support broadcast outside of its ‘one hop’ neighbor as this would create routing loops; although the GoogleBook article indicates that Z-Wave uses a TTL algorithm to eliminate packet routing loops and Floods.

I believe ACK packets sometimes have a difficult time returning back to originator due to signal strength issues – especially when destination node is more than three hops away.

Since I don’t have a Z-Sniffer, most of this knowledge has been gained by using, Leviton RF Toolkit, Diagnostics menu and walking around the house with laptop.

 

[picta]

One of the more attractive features of RadioRA is native shade support. The Somphy shades requires an expensive gateway along with custom installation.

You can get a somfy shade motor for around $300. My friend was quoted close to $2000 for a Lutron shade, he ended up buying somfy shade for $550 from av-outlet. The wired shades do not require any gateways, mine are directly connected to OP2 (there is a thread on this board describing in detail how to install somfy shades, no custom installation is required). If you use wireless shades, then you will indeed need a controller, cost around $300 and supports 16 shades.

 

[gengen]

One other problem that I have with Lutron RadioRA2 is their non-standard wall-plates. Sure, they have multi-gang wall plates in several different colors but this pales in comparison to the much larger selection of Decora-style wall plates available which fit other switches. I plan to gang my light switches with other Decora-compatible audio controls and having a single plate with spaces for lights and audio certainly looks nicer than two separate plates side-by-side.

 

[dgage]

Whoa, non-standard wall plates? I thought their switches and keypads fit standard Decora. I just did a quick search and all of their gear, SeeTemp, etc. shows to be standard Decora. Please provide more info. Thanks.

David