Switch Ideas UPB

rismoney

Active Member
I will be doing new construction and was initially planning for simplicity to put in Simply Automated SA2-40 at every switch. I will be providing the electrician with the switches I want to use, so now I have more flexibility in choice.

Are there other switches that might be more advantageous or even cost effective in different locations? I read that some people preferred the 1140 in bathrooms, as you can program the switch so that a single-tap lights the dimmer up at one level, and a double-tap lights it up at a different level which you can't do with a 240.

In a walk in closet, I wonder if it would be more economical to choose a different switch, since its more utilitarian, as all I would ever need is simple on/off there functionality there to pick out a shirt and pants.

In the family room, I planned to have 3 uneven rows of hi-hats. Is this where I should do a 240 or is it a 3 gang situation or is something better?

Short hallway lights - where dimming isn't really required.

Long hallways - is it best to do virtual hookups for simulated 3 way using the 240s?

Do I need a special switch for gas fireplaces - Note I didn't buy a blower for it yet.

I welcome all thoughts and suggestions.

Regards,
Rismoney
 
what are using to control the UPB setup? I would consider putting magnetic switches on the closet doors and having the opening of the door trigger the switch. You could then use a relay but not sure if that is any cheaper. It may make sense to go with a regular UPB switch and then just have your controller shut it off after a set amount of time.

Check out the wiring instructions for 3 way dumb switch. There is some instance where you want better then 12/3 connecting the main box to the dumb switch, it had something to do with the LEDS but I dont remember all the details. I had a instance where the main switch had 12/2 power, 12/2 to the light and a 12/3 to the remote switch. For the remote switch, I was using the red and black as switched legs and the white(taped with black tape) to bring the power back. This is a common way to wire switches when light is closer to the main swtich then the remote one.

I just remember that when I swapped out my switches for UPB there was some limitation in how the LEDS work... Now to be fair, I had installed a double rocker dumb switch. The second rocker was triggering a lamp module. It is possible my limitation had something to do with that. All I am saying here is double check the wiring diagram for the remote swtiches.
 
what are using to control the UPB setup?

I was going to use an OmniPro II.

I would consider putting magnetic switches on the closet doors and having the opening of the door trigger the switch. You could then use a relay but not sure if that is any cheaper. It may make sense to go with a regular UPB switch and then just have your controller shut it off after a set amount of time.

Is there a particular type or model/number you could recommend?

Check out the wiring instructions for 3 way dumb switch. There is some instance where you want better then 12/3 connecting the main box to the dumb switch, it had something to do with the LEDS but I dont remember all the details. I had a instance where the main switch had 12/2 power, 12/2 to the light and a 12/3 to the remote switch. For the remote switch, I was using the red and black as switched legs and the white(taped with black tape) to bring the power back. This is a common way to wire switches when light is closer to the main swtich then the remote one.

I just remember that when I swapped out my switches for UPB there was some limitation in how the LEDS work... Now to be fair, I had installed a double rocker dumb switch. The second rocker was triggering a lamp module. It is possible my limitation had something to do with that. All I am saying here is double check the wiring diagram for the remote swtiches.

Interesting, I had not thought about the LEDs. I was just planning on using the virtual switch in the 3 way diagram:
http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7857&st=0&p=67150&hl=3way%20upb&fromsearch=1&#entry67150
 
The virtual switch works and offers some advantages over the USR. Just make sure you have a neutral in both boxes that is on the same circuit. That should not be a problem with your new construction but is something those of us in older houses do not often find...
 
I have a mixture of 1140s and 240s in my house.

The 1140s have local control, so are more responsive at the switch, and can send status while activating the load.
The 240s require a link to activate the light, so they can't send status at the same time they are sending the link to activate the local load.

The 1140s also have built in timer functions, which are handy for bath rooms, fans and loads in rooms in remote locations like basements or little used spare bedrooms. You can program a default time into those switches to turn off after a few hours just in case they get accidentally left on. In bathrooms you can have the fan come on with the light, then go into a timed delay, after the light is switched off.
When I turn on my shower light all the fans come on, when I turn it off they stay on for an hour afterward. When I turn on the toilet light, only the toilet fan comes on, when I turn off the toilet light the toilet fan stays on for 10 minutes.

In general I use 1140s on every load I can as the master controller for the load and 240s for the remote switches or when I need a faceplate with multiple switches or the combination of a rocker and link switches.
 
I have a mixture of 1140s and 240s in my house.

The 1140s have local control, so are more responsive at the switch, and can send status while activating the load.
The 240s require a link to activate the light, so they can't send status at the same time they are sending the link to activate the local load.

The 1140s also have built in timer functions, which are handy for bath rooms, fans and loads in rooms in remote locations like basements or little used spare bedrooms. You can program a default time into those switches to turn off after a few hours just in case they get accidentally left on. In bathrooms you can have the fan come on with the light, then go into a timed delay, after the light is switched off.
When I turn on my shower light all the fans come on, when I turn it off they stay on for an hour afterward. When I turn on the toilet light, only the toilet fan comes on, when I turn off the toilet light the toilet fan stays on for 10 minutes.

This is great information. For bathrooms I agree it makes more sense to use 1140s for the reasons you gave. I intend do something along those same lines. So how many total switches do you have in the bathroom, 4 - is it is master bath? Toilet, Shower, Fan, Main? Can you override the toilet fan from staying on, by shutting off that switch? If you do, then if you turn on the toilet light, will the fan come on again or no? I wouldn't want the toilet fan to spin for 10 minutes, for a quick vein drain...lol

In general I use 1140s on every load I can as the master controller for the load and 240s for the remote switches or when I need a faceplate with multiple switches or the combination of a rocker and link switches.

When you say 240s for the remote switches, what are you referring to from a use case perspective? Like where you shut off the lights behind you as you leave and enter rooms? How do you have that configured?

What would you do in a great room, where you have say 12 high hats, where with 3 zones of 4 lights? Would you get 2 1140s and a single 240? The 240 would then control the scenes for the other 2 1140s?

What about a kitchen - Would you do something similar breaking up dimming, under counter lighting, high hats, and a chandelier?

I guess where I struggle is, the benefits of flexibility and what separates standard configurations from really beneficial, utilitarian, and fun configs.
 
Do I need a special switch for gas fireplaces - Note I didn't buy a blower for it yet.

yeah, this can be a bit tricky. Typically gas fireplaces require a low voltage contact and are NOT wired for 120V. So some questions are do you want local control? Are you going to have 120V added to the control switchbox? What you can do is have UPB switch control a 120V relay, then use the relay contacts to control the fireplace.
 
This is all very relevant to what I've been through lately, as I'm about 45 switches into a 60-switch install (including the fireplace portion). When Dan has some time to breath, there's a writeup I did that he'll be posting really listing out the differences and misconceptions with the SAI line. Sorry for the long post - I type fast and I prefer to be detailed.

Desert_AIP nailed it best in my opinion - The 240's are only for places where you need the functionality of a 240 (custom faceplates) - I'll never use a 240 to do an 1140's job, because 1140's are cheaper and way more functional (they are more responsive, transmit status reliably, and have a lot more flexibility). You have far more control with an 1140 - in that you can control different speeds for single up tap, double up tap, single down tap, and double down tap. Depending on the loads, there are a million options that gives you. I use a single up to go to 80% at 1.6 seconds; double up goes to 100% at .08 seconds. Single down is off at 3.2, double down is usually faster, or it'll include other features like triggering a scene too (think bathroom with 4 switches - double down tap on the way out turns them all off). For the garage flourescents, single up turns the light on for 20 minutes; double up turns it on with no timer; single down turns it off, double-down triggers the "whole house off" scene. There are so many configurations it's mind boggling. I took advantage of a lot of them. With a 240, you can never have more actions triggered based on a single or double tap, or an up vs. down tap... it's one scene per rocker. The 1140's let you tricker local load options and scene options independantly - either, neither, or both.

Since you're in the new construction phase, you have even more options - you can put a rocker in for each actual load, and a scene controller (240 or the actual scene controller) in if you want... personally I'm a HUGE believer in having the house look and seem "stock" to your guests, but have extra functionality for you... meaning there's normal switches for those who expect them, but for you and your family, you'll know how to use the scene controllers for better control.

In my home, nearly every room has a switched outlet - but you don't want to switch outlets with an SA switch*, and I generally have no use for switched outlets... so instead, I capped the outlets to be full-time power, and put in a 240 with a 4-button controller in most of those rooms. There were some exceptions, like the master which had a single switch (part of a 3-way) which I converted to a scene switch, so as you enter or leave the room, you have single buttons that control the whole room on, off, relaxing, or getting ready. In places I have table lamps, I use virtual links to lamp modules so I can put them anywhere in the room and have dimming if desired without messing with the outlet. If you truely need a switched outlet, check into the UPB controlled outlets - which can actually take a USR as a remote rocker to control them - it's way safer and *way* more configurable than using a 240 and a UPB outlet or just a 1140 on an outlet directly.

In other places like my kitchen, where I had 3 separate loads (one over the sink, controlled only by that light switch, then a bank of 4 and a bank of 2, in 3-way configuration with switches in the bar and in the kitchen) - I did something tricky - I put a 240 next to the sink with a top rocker and 4 buttons... and at the two 3-way locations, I put a 240 and an 1140 in - so now each of 3 locations has a single rocker and 4 buttons - all to control the same 3 loads. If you use the rocker, it turns on all 3 loads simultaneously (and one is a fluorescent set to snap) - so if you fade up, it stops with the fluorescents on; if you fade down, it stops with the fluorescents off - it's pretty tricky, but quite functional. Then of course you can hit the scene buttons for things like Food Prep, dining, ambiance, or all off - which tie into the under cabinet lights or the cove lighting (which weren't pre-wired so don't have their own switches) and the kitchen and dining lights all at once.

The USR's are a highly misunderstood device - especially since they took a major upgrade within the last year... they don't have everything an 1140's LED can do, but they can blend in pretty well... If you put one in a box that has power/neutral from the same circuit, you can have a blue LED on full time (Or green if you prefer) - if you don't, you can still get either green or blue to fade on with the lights - it's all in how you wire it. Amazingly, they also work with the wire-in fixture modules or the UPB-controlled outlets to give you way more options and flexibility over these devices - this is very important for when you don't have hot and neutral at the switch (think an end-of-run switch, where the power goes down the black to the switch, and is returned on the white - leaving no neutral) - you can instead wire in a fixture module or UPB outlet and now use the two wires that feed the old switch to instead go to the USR as neutral and traveller, and get the same extensive options as with the 1140 switches (but alas, no light unless you have another positive from the same circuit in that box). I hate the virtual links that are so popular in the UPB world.

In my house, I've been very lucky in most places, but have had to pull off a couple tricks here and there... and I use real switches pretty much everywhere...

The fireplace is about the last thing I haven't tackled yet, but it's on the short list... what I have is two decora switches today... the bottom switch controls the fireplace - it's basically a low voltage setup where connecting the two wires lights the fireplace. The top switch is a true 120V switch that turns the blower outlet on/off. What I will be doing in the near future isn't 100% up to code I'm sure (might be if I use the right rated wires), but it's way safer in my house, where my 2-year old controls the fireplace at her will... the top switch will be replaced with a 2240 (dual load switch) - with the first load controlling the outlet inside the fireplace for the blower (it's a known load so it's different than switching an outlet in a room) - and the second circuit will be feeding a 120V relay (like ano mentioned above) which will be housed in the box below. When that relay is activated, it'll close the contacts to the fireplace below. It'll be a 120VAC relay sitting inside this gang box with a blank cover over it. A new situation last week prompted a slight design change however - I'll be including a 3-way key switch now - where position 1 is off no matter what; position 2 is UPB controlled, and position 3 is manual on. This is to keep the 2-year old from being able to control it at all, but gives me a bypass to still turn on the fireplace if I lose power. This came about last week when I lost power and found the fireplace still worked, but wouldn't have if I had already completed my UPB conversion. With the 2-year old removed from the equation, I'd just use a 3-position rocker/slider switch there to maintain that manual control as desired.

*controlling an outlet can be dangerous if you don't know what'll be plugged into it. You can use an SAI switch for any supported load as long as it doesn't exceed the switch's 12A rating (15A is normal switches/circuits) - but if someone plugs in a 15A heater, you're asking for it... You'll be better off with a safer relay. Also, if controlling an outlet, make 100% sure it's set to Snap! mode - you can't dim anything but an incandescent or similar approved dimmable lighting load - no motors/fans, etc).

Think it through - if you have any more specific questions, let us know... it's a lot of personal opinion in how you wire for your scene control vs. semi-normal operation... I used to be totally against scenes because I had exactly as many lights as needed; but in my new house, it's big and has lots of loads, and I'm using scene control everywhere (with a kitchen with 7 separate loads; a master bedroom with a total of 10 separate loads) - so I learned the value of good scene control and a little bit of making up for things I didn't like about what the builder wired to each location.

Lastly - it's a bit "extra" and requires the controller in the middle, but for closets and pantry - I've installed door sensors (normal door contacts) so that I can have the Elk turn the light on/off as the closets are opened/closed; also using the built-in functionality of the switch so that if the pantry is left open for 20 mins, the switch still turns off. If you're repainting the pantry and want the light on for an hour, you just double-tap it on. In one closet, I stole the hall-closet switch and turned it into a scene controller and just used the contact method to automate it - so it doesn't need a switch any more.
 
This information is extremely valuable and I want to thank you for the time you took to type up all of this. I am ecstatic by the wealth of information you have provided. I can totally relate to the quantity of switches and choices, to ensure you get at least an initial install that is well thought out.


Work2Play said:
Desert_AIP nailed it best in my opinion - The 240's are only for places where you need the functionality of a 240 (custom faceplates) - I'll never use a 240 to do an 1140's job, because 1140's are cheaper and way more functional (they are more responsive, transmit status reliably, and have a lot more flexibility). You have far more control with an 1140 - in that you can control different speeds for single up tap, double up tap, single down tap, and double down tap. Depending on the loads, there are a million options that gives you. I use a single up to go to 80% at 1.6 seconds; double up goes to 100% at .08 seconds. Single down is off at 3.2, double down is usually faster, or it'll include other features like triggering a scene too (think bathroom with 4 switches - double down tap on the way out turns them all off). For the garage flourescents, single up turns the light on for 20 minutes; double up turns it on with no timer; single down turns it off, double-down triggers the "whole house off" scene. There are so many configurations it's mind boggling. I took advantage of a lot of them. With a 240, you can never have more actions triggered based on a single or double tap, or an up vs. down tap... it's one scene per rocker. The 1140's let you tricker local load options and scene options independantly - either, neither, or both.

This is what I was wondering about, because several other threads mentioned people who for simplicity sake put in the 240s in every switch but that seemed overkill and more of a indecision type option or where input/parts could not be supplied to the electrician. I much rather realize the functional capabilities than simply be able to switch faceplates.

Since you're in the new construction phase, you have even more options - you can put a rocker in for each actual load, and a scene controller (240 or the actual scene controller) in if you want... personally I'm a HUGE believer in having the house look and seem "stock" to your guests, but have extra functionality for you... meaning there's normal switches for those who expect them, but for you and your family, you'll know how to use the scene controllers for better control.


In my home, nearly every room has a switched outlet - but you don't want to switch outlets with an SA switch*, and I generally have no use for switched outlets... so instead, I capped the outlets to be full-time power, and put in a 240 with a 4-button controller in most of those rooms. There were some exceptions, like the master which had a single switch (part of a 3-way) which I converted to a scene switch, so as you enter or leave the room, you have single buttons that control the whole room on, off, relaxing, or getting ready. In places I have table lamps, I use virtual links to lamp modules so I can put them anywhere in the room and have dimming if desired without messing with the outlet. If you truely need a switched outlet, check into the UPB controlled outlets - which can actually take a USR as a remote rocker to control them - it's way safer and *way* more configurable than using a 240 and a UPB outlet or just a 1140 on an outlet directly.
I don't have switched outlets planned actually, nor want to get involved with the lamp modules at this stage ;) I do understand the power level issue in controlling them the wall outlets. We put 4 high hats and center fans connections in all the bedrooms. Which leads me to a potential new option - a 2240 which can control the high hats, and the center fan essentially independently. I believe you can disable the dimming feature on these, plus I probably wouldn't put a ceiling fan in anyway, probably a decorative light fixture.

In other places like my kitchen, where I had 3 separate loads (one over the sink, controlled only by that light switch, then a bank of 4 and a bank of 2, in 3-way configuration with switches in the bar and in the kitchen) - I did something tricky - I put a 240 next to the sink with a top rocker and 4 buttons... and at the two 3-way locations, I put a 240 and an 1140 in - so now each of 3 locations has a single rocker and 4 buttons - all to control the same 3 loads. If you use the rocker, it turns on all 3 loads simultaneously (and one is a fluorescent set to snap) - so if you fade up, it stops with the fluorescents on; if you fade down, it stops with the fluorescents off - it's pretty tricky, but quite functional. Then of course you can hit the scene buttons for things like Food Prep, dining, ambiance, or all off - which tie into the under cabinet lights or the cove lighting (which weren't pre-wired so don't have their own switches) and the kitchen and dining lights all at once.

This is what I was after. This is awesome! I anticipate a similiar 3 load situation (Chandelier, UnderCabs, and Hi Hats). By pairing the 240 with the 1140 each at opposite ends would really work nice. I can use a single 240 for the undercab light, since that is more fun, than functional.

The USR's are a highly misunderstood device - especially since they took a major upgrade within the last year... they don't have everything an 1140's LED can do, but they can blend in pretty well... If you put one in a box that has power/neutral from the same circuit, you can have a blue LED on full time (Or green if you prefer) - if you don't, you can still get either green or blue to fade on with the lights - it's all in how you wire it. Amazingly, they also work with the wire-in fixture modules or the UPB-controlled outlets to give you way more options and flexibility over these devices - this is very important for when you don't have hot and neutral at the switch (think an end-of-run switch, where the power goes down the black to the switch, and is returned on the white - leaving no neutral) - you can instead wire in a fixture module or UPB outlet and now use the two wires that feed the old switch to instead go to the USR as neutral and traveller, and get the same extensive options as with the 1140 switches (but alas, no light unless you have another positive from the same circuit in that box). I hate the virtual links that are so popular in the UPB world.
I definitely didn't understand them, until I looked at that wiring diagram I linked above, and still didn't fully grasp. So in a 3 way scenario, you prefer the 1140 for local and USR for the remote switch, instead of pairing 2 240s? Is it aesthetically bad the USR as it doesn't match other switches? Why do you hate the virtual links - rollback to conventional, controller dependency, or something?


In my house, I've been very lucky in most places, but have had to pull off a couple tricks here and there... and I use real switches pretty much everywhere...

The fireplace is about the last thing I haven't tackled yet, but it's on the short list... what I have is two decora switches today... the bottom switch controls the fireplace - it's basically a low voltage setup where connecting the two wires lights the fireplace. The top switch is a true 120V switch that turns the blower outlet on/off. What I will be doing in the near future isn't 100% up to code I'm sure (might be if I use the right rated wires), but it's way safer in my house, where my 2-year old controls the fireplace at her will... the top switch will be replaced with a 2240 (dual load switch) - with the first load controlling the outlet inside the fireplace for the blower (it's a known load so it's different than switching an outlet in a room) - and the second circuit will be feeding a 120V relay (like ano mentioned above) which will be housed in the box below. When that relay is activated, it'll close the contacts to the fireplace below. It'll be a 120VAC relay sitting inside this gang box with a blank cover over it. A new situation last week prompted a slight design change however - I'll be including a 3-way key switch now - where position 1 is off no matter what; position 2 is UPB controlled, and position 3 is manual on. This is to keep the 2-year old from being able to control it at all, but gives me a bypass to still turn on the fireplace if I lose power. This came about last week when I lost power and found the fireplace still worked, but wouldn't have if I had already completed my UPB conversion. With the 2-year old removed from the equation, I'd just use a 3-position rocker/slider switch there to maintain that manual control as desired.

*controlling an outlet can be dangerous if you don't know what'll be plugged into it. You can use an SAI switch for any supported load as long as it doesn't exceed the switch's 12A rating (15A is normal switches/circuits) - but if someone plugs in a 15A heater, you're asking for it... You'll be better off with a safer relay. Also, if controlling an outlet, make 100% sure it's set to Snap! mode - you can't dim anything but an incandescent or similar approved dimmable lighting load - no motors/fans, etc).
I have a 2 year old too! I need to look into this relay stuff. Can you refer me to specific parts for this type of application so I can research further?

Think it through - if you have any more specific questions, let us know... it's a lot of personal opinion in how you wire for your scene control vs. semi-normal operation... I used to be totally against scenes because I had exactly as many lights as needed; but in my new house, it's big and has lots of loads, and I'm using scene control everywhere (with a kitchen with 7 separate loads; a master bedroom with a total of 10 separate loads) - so I learned the value of good scene control and a little bit of making up for things I didn't like about what the builder wired to each location.

Lastly - it's a bit "extra" and requires the controller in the middle, but for closets and pantry - I've installed door sensors (normal door contacts) so that I can have the Elk turn the light on/off as the closets are opened/closed; also using the built-in functionality of the switch so that if the pantry is left open for 20 mins, the switch still turns off. If you're repainting the pantry and want the light on for an hour, you just double-tap it on. In one closet, I stole the hall-closet switch and turned it into a scene controller and just used the contact method to automate it - so it doesn't need a switch any more.
I think door sensors are a great idea too! What type/model did you use?

Once again THANK YOU for this amazing and thoughtful reply.
 
No problem - I noticed from doing my research that there was different information out there and different opinions... that's why I like to share what I've learned first hand.
...several other threads mentioned people who for simplicity sake put in the 240s in every switch but that seemed overkill and more of a indecision type option or where input/parts could not be supplied to the electrician. I much rather realize the functional capabilities than simply be able to switch faceplates.
In my research, I thought the 240's were the way to go too... until I worked with them. You lose functionality with a 240 - you lose the timer, some responsiveness, and you lose a lot of control options. Plus, it seems pointless to me to be forced to transmit and receive a "link" on the same switch to make the load wired to that switch operate. With an 1140, it can work without transmitting or receiving a single thing. Now, where you want the flexibility of multi-button or multi-function scene control, the 240's are awesome!
I don't have switched outlets planned actually, nor want to get involved with the lamp modules at this stage ;) I do understand the power level issue in controlling them the wall outlets.
I guess where I was going with that was indicating that I got lucky - even though I was old construction, I still had an "extra" switch which could be repurposed as a scene switch; for your new construction you may want to think about if you want physical switches for all loads with a scene controller as well, or if you want to combine functions and use your scene buttons to get what you really want - kinda like I did in my kitchen out of necessity.
Which leads me to a potential new option - a 2240 which can control the high hats, and the center fan essentially independently. I believe you can disable the dimming feature on these, plus I probably wouldn't put a ceiling fan in anyway, probably a decorative light fixture.
Yup - they're great for stuff like that.
So in a 3 way scenario, you prefer the 1140 for local and USR for the remote switch, instead of pairing 2 240s? Is it aesthetically bad the USR as it doesn't match other switches? Why do you hate the virtual links - rollback to conventional, controller dependency, or something?
I don't like virtual links because they're now two separate switches only communicating over powerline. They're much more expensive, and all for what - to get a constant-lit blue light? You can get that anyways in your new construction by specifying to make sure there's sufficient wire to get a neutral and an always-hot in the box. Remember the differences I stated in control you lose using a 240 vs. an 1140 - that's because they work entirely off scenes. Since the 1140 and USR are physically linked, all functions between them are the same - so if you take advantage of all the features of an 1140 (timer, different fade rates, hidden functions to activate scenes, etc) - they all follow on the USR. With a virtual link, you get one command - off or on (well, with some light level control).

The *only* thing you lose with a USR is some control over the LED status light. I can deal with that... I use blue in my house for all my switches. When the load is on, it's normal blue; when off, it's light blue (basically violet). A 240 can only track its own load, so it's always a solid color anyways if it's a virtual link, unless you're pointlessly switching on/off a load that's hooked to nothing. So, for most of my USR's, I was able to get HOT from an adjacent switch on the same circuit and get full-time blue LED anyways. In the couple that have no power to steal from, I have them follow the load - so the blue LED dims/follows the load - if the light is on, so's the blue status light. It kinda sucks that the light goes off when the load is off - but for the price difference and all the other reasons, I'm fine with that. And if you're into showing off, when you have company over, the lights are on and thus so are the LED's, so it looks consistent anyways to guests. Since you're new construction, you can make sure you have the right wires in the right places to have the LED's work any way you want them to.

The only place I can't use the LED at all is using a USR hooked as a slave switch to a UPB-controlled outlet, because I only have 2 wires between the outlet and the load (black and white). If I had a 3rd, I could do anything with the LED's.
I have a 2 year old too! I need to look into this relay stuff. Can you refer me to specific parts for this type of application so I can research further?
Sure - but you'll have to give me a couple weeks... I want to research to see how to do it to code; I think by using the right voltage insulated wires it can still be legal. Start with a 2240 and I'll do a diagram soon.

I think door sensors are a great idea too! What type/model did you use?
I'm retrofit, so for me it's the Ion wireless plungers... you're new construction, so it's like $5 to add a wired door sensor to an alarm panel - same as you'd use on any exterior door. Or, you could go with something all physical and not through your HA system - http://www.homecontr...-Switch-LE210DN - way cheaper, but I like the functionality of having the alarm control with the timers and all.
--

Final note - through Friday only (it's been on all month) - www.homecontrols.com is offering 20% off on all SA equipment... it's pretty last minute for a big decision, but 20% is big - what I've done in the past is order the first 2/3rds of what I think I need, then when I get through things and discover any challenges, then get more careful about my orders in the end so I don't end up with extras.

Good luck!
 
I forgot to mention my best suggestion of all... go download UpStart from any of the sites that offer it... SimplyAutomated does... and work with a blank file and just add fake devices - add an 1140, a 240, a 2240, and so on - and look at the options available to you. You can pick up on a lot if you pretend to program your switches and see what you can actually do. If nothing else, it'll help you come up with more questions!
 
This is great information. For bathrooms I agree it makes more sense to use 1140s for the reasons you gave. I intend do something along those same lines. So how many total switches do you have in the bathroom, 4 - is it is master bath? Toilet, Shower, Fan, Main? Can you override the toilet fan from staying on, by shutting off that switch? If you do, then if you turn on the toilet light, will the fan come on again or no? I wouldn't want the toilet fan to spin for 10 minutes, for a quick vein drain...lol

I have a similar setup in all my bathrooms (3) but the Master is the most complex.

I have a shower light that has a fan in parallel, it was originally wired to a single switch.
I replaced the switch with an 1140 and use it as the load control for the light.
I split out the fan in the attic and wired it to be controlled by a relay module (you could use an 1140 in box in the attic in a similar manner, bonus the 1140 has a higher wattage rating and over temperature protection the relay module does not - both have the timer function).

I have a toilet light and fan on separate switches, both replaced by 1140s.

I have a vanity/makeup area controlled by a single switch, replaced by an 1140.

The main overhead can lights and the sink mirror lights are all on the same circuit, and controlled by a single switch at the entrance to the bathroom. Once in the bathroom you couldn't adjust the lights. I replaced the switch at the entrance to the bathroom with an 1140.

Next to one of the outlets by the sink I removed the single gang box and replaced it with a double gang old work box. I replaced the outlet and added a 240 here with a half rocker plus 4 button faceplate.
The 240 is set to respond identically to the same links as the main bathroom overhead light 1140, so the LED on the 240 tracks the main lights status the same as the load control 1140 outside.

Total five 1140s, an inline relay module and one 240.

Operation:
In the shower.
Turn on the shower light, it turns on (with a 1 hour delay set just in case I forget to turn it off).
It also sends a link (Master Shower Light On) that turns on the shower fan and toilet fan (right next to the shower), these have a 1 hour delay so that they will automatically go off when the light goes off.
When I turn the shower light off, it sends another link (Master Shower Light Off). That resets the fan timers on both fans to the 1 hour. So they will stay on a full hour after I turn the light off, even if I showered for 30 minutes already, in order to purge all the moisture from the bathroom.
In the morning I hate the glaring light, sometimes I shower with the light off. If I tap the bottom of the light rocker (turning the light "off") it transmits the links and the fans come on without the light.
I use the same function if I ever want to turn the fans on for some reason, smoke (hopefully not), chemical smells from cleaning, etc.

In the toilet area.
Turn on the toilet light (with a 1 hour delay), it sends a link (Master Toilet Light On), to the toilet fan only (with a 1 hour delay). The shower light does not respond to it.
When I turn the toilet light off, it sends a link (Master Toilet Light Off), to the toilet fan only (with a 5 minute delay).

The toilet fan switch turns on the toilet fan only, single tap and double tap have different time delays (5 min and 30 min IIRC).
Sometimes I use the toilet without turning on the light so I wanted a way to turn on the fan independently.
Turning the toilet fan off at the switch (bottom rocker), sends a link to turn off the shower fan as well. That way I always have manual override of the timers. Since I use the toilet fan in conjunction with the shower fan after a shower, I can't think of an instance where I would want the shower fan running but not the toilet fan.
Also, if I use the toilet after the shower, and turn on the light, the timed program for the toilet fan will get overridden to the new 5 min limit when I switch the light off, but will not affect the shower fan. So the shower fan will still run the full hour to exhaust the moisture.

The vanity/makeup area light switch only affects the vanity area.

The main lights.
The 1140 at the entrance ramps on the main lights at 40% (default for morning), double tap ramps to 70% (we don't really need 100%), both with a 3 hour timer just in case. Dimming up and down still work.
The bottom rocker turns off the main lights and sends a link (Master Bath All Off), which turns off the toilet light, the shower light, the main lights, the vanity lights and the two closet lights (on their own 1140s and which are accessed only from the bathroom). So regardless of what I turned on when I was in the bathroom, this single switch turns off all the lights without going around hitting the individual switches, and it leaves the timed fans undisturbed. Also if I walk through the bathroom to the closet, never turning on the bathroom light, turn on the closet light, and then walk out and forget to turn off the closet, I only have to go to the bath switch to turn off the closet rather than all the way back to the closet.
I can't recall what the bottom double tap does (I believe it snaps off the lights, but I don't use it much).

The 240 inside the bathroom next to the sink is used as a link transmitter only, there is no load attached to it. So it is like a super 3-way switch with LED tracking of the main lights. The links the 240 sends to the 1140s activate the delay timers for the lights too, so there is still the 2 hour automatic off delay in case I forget to turn off the bathroom lights.
The top half rocker on the 240 operates identically to the 1140 at the entrance. So I can enter the bathroom without turning on the lights and turn them on from here. This is nice in the morning so I can enter the bathroom, close the door and then turn on the lights and not disturb my wife with the "click" from the 1140 at the entrance, or the cascade of light into the bedroom with the door open. This was not possible with the original configuration.
This rocker has dimming control as well.
The lower 4 buttons toggle the main and vanity lights on and off and toggle both fans on and off all independently.
Holding these buttons for the lights toggles dimming of that individual light.

That's one of the most complicated setups in my house. I put a lot of thought into how things interact and how we use the fixtures on a daily basis. The kitchen is similarly complicated due to the number of fixtures and the daily activities there, but most of the other rooms are fairly straightforward. Good thing is it is easy to modify and tailor to our particular habits.


When you say 240s for the remote switches, what are you referring to from a use case perspective? Like where you shut off the lights behind you as you leave and enter rooms? How do you have that configured?

As I tried to describe in my long winded diatribe above, I use the 240s in place of 3 and 4-way switches generally. Or I add them where no switch existed before to use them as link transmitters.

I put one next to my master bedroom lights 1140 with an 8 button faceplate. It has links for all security on/off, garage off, downstairs off, all on/ off, etc. The LED on this 240 tracks the garage lights. So if I go to bed and leave the gorge lights on I know it by the LED, and can turn them off from the bedroom, and confirm they are off with the LED.

I used one to split my garage lights into different bays, and use the double half rocker faceplate. So I don't have to turn on all banks of the overhead lights when I don't need them all. The switch on the other wall that was the 3-way companion to the main switch is the second load control. So each switch controls a different load (Bay 1&2 or Bay 3), but both have the double rockers to send links to the other bank. The off link for top half of the main switch (by the laundry door) turns off both banks, so I only have to press a single rocker to turn all the garage lights off. There is another 8 button 240 next to the main garage control for controlling exterior lights and the laundry room (connected to the garage).

In the hallways, I also split the 3 way circuits. An 1140 is the load control for the hallway lights and the switch on the other end is a 240 link transmitter. Usually that 240 has a double rocker faceplate so I can control the hallway lights and the niche lights independently.

I also have my security lights controlled through 240s, with the 240's in boxes in the attic. Since I don't need local control in that situation I use the 240 without a faceplate similar to a wired in module, but with over temperature protection. I got a good deal on some 240s, quite a bit cheaper than the 1140s or wired in modules so that's why I used them in this application. Each of the security lights is a member of several groups so depending on the link sent; front, right, rear, left, etc., different lights come on in different combinations. The lights are usually controlled by motion sensors (with manual override) so I didn't need the timer delay backup. If the 240s had the timer delay I would use it as a failsafe, but the price on these was too good to justify getting the 1140s.


What would you do in a great room, where you have say 12 high hats, where with 3 zones of 4 lights? Would you get 2 1140s and a single 240? The 240 would then control the scenes for the other 2 1140s?

Depending on what other functions you wanted at that location, I might use three 1140s, two 1140s and one 240 or one 1140 and two 240s (those are the options? No kidding Dr. Obvious!).
Do you always or usually turn on all three zones together? Or do you usually use a single zone and turn the others on only occasionally.
Do you have an Omni or other controller that you want to see the status messages from the 1140s while you are turning the loads on?

I'm thinking I might use one 1140 and two 240s.
I would probably set them up 1140, 240, 240, with the 1140 closest to the door jamb or side of the room you use/operate the switch (if that makes sense).
I'd make the 1140 the "master" for the 3 zones of lights, so it had local control of itself, and send links to the other two zones.
They'd all turn on and off from the single switch via links from the 1140.
The first 240 (middle switch) would have load control for zone two of the lights but probably have an 8 button face plate for use as a scene/link transmitter.
The second 240 (third switch, furthest away from the door jamb and least used) would have load control for zone three of the lights but probably have a double half rocker face plate to control the second and third zones independently of the first.
So you could turn on/off just zone 2, turn on/off just zone 3, or turn all zones off, then turn off zones 2 & 3 leaving zone 1 on.
Does that make sense?
It all depends on how you use the lights.


What about a kitchen - Would you do something similar breaking up dimming, under counter lighting, high hats, and a chandelier?

I guess where I struggle is, the benefits of flexibility and what separates standard configurations from really beneficial, utilitarian, and fun configs.

I won't waste time here yet describing my entire kitchen setup until you've had a chance to read all of the above.
But I have kitchen lights, kitchen sink lights, under cabinet lights, breakfast nook lights, and kitchen desk under cabinet lights, and the family and dining rooms next to the kitchen area all controlled though a combination of several 1140s and 240s.


I was working as a remodel, you have advantages working from scratch.
I sat down with pen and paper and wrote out a list of lights and drew a rough sketch of the switch locations.
Then I thought about how I use each area.
I pictured myself waking up and walked myself around the house for a typical day, then going to bed.
Were there groups of lights I always used together?
Were there lights I seldom used?
Did I want to split control of lights or fans that were currently under tandem control?
Was there a single box where I really wanted two switches?
Was there a location I passed often that didn't have a switch?
Once I was downstairs, did I really want to go all the way back up stairs to turn off that hall light?
When I was going to bed did I want to go down stairs to turn off the kitchen and family room?
Did I leave the garage light on again?

I really need a dimmer in the bathroom because 650W of light at 4am is too much of a shock to the system!
40% is really a lot nicer on the eyes, and I want the bath ramp rate to be slower than the other switches.
But when I come in during the day, I need more light and my eyes are adjusted.
Those are the kinds of things I wrote down.

I don't have all loads controlled on 1140s, but I try to make most that way.
I have a couple of loads that are on 240s because I needed a second switch for something in that location, like a desk lamp in the office I wanted to control separately from the overhead lights.


Then I made a list of the switches and loads and links I wanted and figured out what went where.
It's much easier to reconfigure link behavior, or switch out a faceplate, than it is to replace a switch or add a switch.
And VERY difficult to fill in the hole left by removing a switch :-)
 
In my research, I thought the 240's were the way to go too... until I worked with them. You lose functionality with a 240 - you lose the timer, some responsiveness, and you lose a lot of control options. Plus, it seems pointless to me to be forced to transmit and receive a "link" on the same switch to make the load wired to that switch operate. With an 1140, it can work without transmitting or receiving a single thing. Now, where you want the flexibility of multi-button or multi-function scene control, the 240's are awesome!

I concur.
I originally planned on using all 240s.
I bought a couple and played with them for a while and dsicovered some short comings.
A little more reading and research, I bought a couple fo the 1140s.
Once I started playing with them I really liked the configurability and I started thinking of more uses for the local tap/link combinations and the timers.
As part of my HLC rework, I'm going back and replacing some of the early 240s I installed with 1140s just for that reason.


I don't like virtual links because they're now two separate switches only communicating over powerline. They're much more expensive, and all for what - to get a constant-lit blue light? You can get that anyways in your new construction by specifying to make sure there's sufficient wire to get a neutral and an always-hot in the box. Remember the differences I stated in control you lose using a 240 vs. an 1140 - that's because they work entirely off scenes. Since the 1140 and USR are physically linked, all functions between them are the same - so if you take advantage of all the features of an 1140 (timer, different fade rates, hidden functions to activate scenes, etc) - they all follow on the USR. With a virtual link, you get one command - off or on (well, with some light level control).

I use the "Custom" function in UPStart a lot for the scenes.
Even with the small buttons you can double tap and hold them and toggle functions. So they make good scene controllers.
Lack of local control and status transmit in conjunction with load activtion make them difficult to choose for load control.
And I like to use the LEDs as remote status indicators for lights you can;t see from the control location. Garage, Attic, etc.

I used a USR in a 3 way set up when I was orignially playing around, and thought it was too limited for me. Especially the need for the wiring to exist to and from the load or the master switch. So I switched to the 240s with (usually) multi button faceplates. But I don't really have enough experience with the USRs to completely wave anyone else off, what I've done has worked for me.

The new SA scene controller with tracking LEDs looks interesting.

I absolutely lucked out with my house since I am doing a retrofit.
Every box I have opened up has a neutral in it, and the electrician used all deep boxes.
I could have had problems if those two things were not the case.
 
Desert_AIP - you sound like you've had a lot of similar experiences I've had; but with some differences in how we use 3-way switches, etc. In my case, most rooms had a switched outlet, which I have no use for, so I capped them for full-time power and put my scene controllers there. I also got lucky in that all but one switch had neutral, and only a couple didn't have a full-time power I could use for the USR's blue light - and all deep-boxes. I love whoever wired the place.

I do agree with the use of Custom - I have some specific buttons that'll turn on or off every light in the house, or the entire upstairs, downstairs, etc - and I wanted protection from the kids, so I bury some functions under double-tap or tap & hold. Very useful.

Funny - my master bath has about as many switches, but I don't use fans ever so no real timers there... when I can tie humidity into the mix I'll add them in. For the kids bathrooms, I incorporate timers so nothing gets left on. Same with pantry, closets and garage. Just within a few square feet, my master bath has - a 240 right at the entrance - was a 3way turned scene controller - has a button for entering the room, and one for exiting - and 2 others for functions like Morning Prep and Ambiance. A table-top controller and another 240 have my whole-house off, bump in the night, master goodnight, etc. The scene controler at entry/exit is awesome - one button to turn everything in the master off on your way out, or the main lights on as you enter, are quite handy.

Another reason I thought of last night why Scene controllers are more awesome... With standard mechanical switches, if you have 2-4 side by side, you can run by and hit them all at once and get the desired result. With UPB, especially with a 240, it's easy to clog the powerline and have messages not get out and actions not carried out - especially if over virtual links. With 1140's the local action will always happen, but status may not update or scenes may not activate as expected. For that reason, being able to press a single button on a scene controller (in my case it's mostly 4-button faceplates) is easier and more reliable.

And Desert_AIP - I agree if you want 3-way like functionality where it doesn't exist - that a USR is limited... but I got pretty lucky in my house - most switches were pretty well thought out... my biggest pet peave was the dance required to shut down the downstairs lights as I was going upstairs, so with UPB, I have a 3-way light circuit for the upstairs hallway - one as you reach the top of the stairs (by the kids' rooms), and one by the master/office entrance (office is where I sleep sometimes, so it's pretty functional) - so a double-press of either of those (they work the same since they're both connected) turns off the whole downstairs as we retire for the evening. Of course, the buttons in the master and on the tabletop controller also shut down the whole house, but this one in the hall is quite convenient. Even if I'm just heading up to start my kids' bedtime routine and know I won't be downstairs for a while, I'll still hit the "downstairs off" button. Soon I hope to have the Elk monitor for that as well, and when received have it set back the temperature downstairs as well.
 
I thought what would be helpful [not just for me, but the CocoonTech Forum] is going through a few sample use cases, incorporating a lot of the above thoughts. So I figured I would start documenting things, to see if I am on the right track. I've attached a Visio of the Family Room.

Assumption here - I am told the fireplace is a standard decora, and not an LV/relay type thing - though I need to doublecheck w/ the electrician after New Years.

Are these statements relatively true with these SA switches - Every Load essentially needs a rocker somewhere? Max 2 loads to a switch, and all the other extra rockers and buttons are scene/controller based?

Appreciate all the information you have provided to a newbie :)

Rismoney
 

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