Tell me it isn't so ....
- Thread starter Rupp
- Start date
"Maybe if enough of us complain they will change their mind. "
This is Why I keep you guys informed. If we all would send an email or contact them It may be enough to change their mind. I don't see why they can't offer a upgrade policy for a small fee.
I constantly talk to the Home Pro Dist. I place orders usually once a week. I really believe in Zwave and that’s why I started my side business. So please before people criticize my comments and knowledge note that I'm getting this information direct. I'm even in contact with a Zwave engineer in Switzerland that told me specifics No one else could.
At first I only put this on my site but after awhile thought I better post for those who don't visit the site.
On a bright side Worthington Dist. has many new Zwave products in their 2005 Dealer catalog.
Zwave Motion is priced roughly 10.00 then switches (zir000)
This is Why I keep you guys informed. If we all would send an email or contact them It may be enough to change their mind. I don't see why they can't offer a upgrade policy for a small fee.
I constantly talk to the Home Pro Dist. I place orders usually once a week. I really believe in Zwave and that’s why I started my side business. So please before people criticize my comments and knowledge note that I'm getting this information direct. I'm even in contact with a Zwave engineer in Switzerland that told me specifics No one else could.
At first I only put this on my site but after awhile thought I better post for those who don't visit the site.
On a bright side Worthington Dist. has many new Zwave products in their 2005 Dealer catalog.
Zwave Motion is priced roughly 10.00 then switches (zir000)
mbreeden
Active Member
Squintz:
Here is the address:
[email protected]
Here is the message I sent:
Dear Sir:
I am writing to express my concern/displeasure over the ZTH100 Wireless controller. I have purchased about 15 of you dimmers as well as the controller and USB computer interface. I was waiting to purchase more devices, transmitter, motion, and 3-way switches but have been told that it will not work w/my controller. I was also told that I would need to buy a new controller if I wanted to control/learn the new transmitter. Now the news is that it will not work w/the thermostat that is due out. You have no upgrade plan for the controllers; you have no trade in plan or upgradeability either. This shows a lack of thinking on your part. Even the newly released controller is not upgradeable. What is going to happen the next time a new device/feature comes out? Are people supposed to have multiple remotes to control different segments of their house? I hope you will reconsider your plan about these controllers, because if you do not, I will not purchase any more of your products and will either switch to Leviton or Intermatic brands. I know that this feeling is share amongst many users of Homeseer and other Home Automation boards.
Sincerely
Michael Breeden
(716)888-3540
[email protected]
Here is the address:
[email protected]
Here is the message I sent:
Dear Sir:
I am writing to express my concern/displeasure over the ZTH100 Wireless controller. I have purchased about 15 of you dimmers as well as the controller and USB computer interface. I was waiting to purchase more devices, transmitter, motion, and 3-way switches but have been told that it will not work w/my controller. I was also told that I would need to buy a new controller if I wanted to control/learn the new transmitter. Now the news is that it will not work w/the thermostat that is due out. You have no upgrade plan for the controllers; you have no trade in plan or upgradeability either. This shows a lack of thinking on your part. Even the newly released controller is not upgradeable. What is going to happen the next time a new device/feature comes out? Are people supposed to have multiple remotes to control different segments of their house? I hope you will reconsider your plan about these controllers, because if you do not, I will not purchase any more of your products and will either switch to Leviton or Intermatic brands. I know that this feeling is share amongst many users of Homeseer and other Home Automation boards.
Sincerely
Michael Breeden
(716)888-3540
[email protected]
mbreeden
Active Member
Here is Act's reply to my message:
Dear Mr. Breeden,
Your email was routed to me. Let me see if I can at least "respond" to your email, even though I doubt that I will be able to adequately explain our situation to your satisfaction (and believe me, this is not a canned "cut and paste" reply).
First, allow me to say that the opinions of all our customers are important to us. It is because of input from users such as you, that we have been able to plan the development of our products, even though in this situation, it is clear that you feel that we did a poor job of it.
Second, let me also say that the decision was not made lightly. We have had discussions upon discussions, upon meeting after meeting. Here are some of the problems with which we had to contend:
1. When we first designed the firmware and command set for the ZTHx00, we knew that there would be future necessary upgrades since we knew that as new protocol additions became available, we would have to allow for those new command sets.
2. We also know that we were limited by what was available "at that time". This meant that your ZTH100 had to be built using the only IC chip-set available at that time and we knew that it would have limited memory.
3. When we first designed the ZTH100, we knew that we would eventually need to add the command class that would enable it to configure future devices, like the ZTW100, but at that time, the ZTW100 didn't exist, and neither did the command class to operate it.
Therefore, we had to do the best we could and build a hand-held controller that would initialize, configure and operate those Z-Wave devices which were in existence at that time. However, your statement that you would "need to buy a new controller if I wanted to control/learn the new transmitter." is not entirely correct. Your existing ZTH100 will still be able to "add" the ZTW100 transmitter to your existing network (even though it will not know what to do with it), and then your HomeSeer computer controller will (soon) be able send the necessary commands to "associate" that new transmitter to which ever receiver (or receivers) you wish to control.
While at the recent Electronic House Expo in Long Beach CA, I spend some time with Rich Helmke of HomeSeer, and he was able do the necessary associations with the HomeSeer system. However, I can not speak for Rich or HomeSeer, so please do not take my statement as proof that the HomeSeer system will do that "right now". I have worked with Rich for many years and I know that he will want to do all the necessary testing and documentation before releasing this software upgrade.
Your statement that we, "...have no upgrade plan for the controllers", is unfortunately true, but not for the reasons you may think. We are working with many other Z-Wave partners on many new products. In the next 12 months, we hope to release over 20 new products for use in North America and Europe. After that, we may begin other projects that we haven't even thought of yet.
Do you know what those new products will be?
Unfortunately, neither do we. They do not yet exist. Therefore it is clearly impossible for us to include them into any ZTH100 we are manufacturing now. Plus, as new products are developed, by us or other Z-Wave partners, the enormous number of new commands that will be needed will undoubtedly require hardware upgrades to the ZTH100 before we add any software/firmware additions.
We did consider offering some sort of upgrade "program". But again, we saw so many inherent potential pitfalls that it was simply not a viable option. We considered many different ways to try and handle this:
1. Offer a discount on a new ZTH100 so they could keep their old one as a spare.
Unfortunately, we would not be able to offer enough of a discount to make it desirable to the customer. Besides, how would we monitor it. It would have to be controlled by our distributors and neither we nor they would have any mechanism in place to make sure only those users with the next previous version would get the discount. Imagine the bureaucracy that would be needed to keep such a program running.
2. Offer a trade-in for their old ZTH100 so they get a new one, we get their old one.
Unfortunately, we would have no use for the old one. We explored this idea, but it was clear that there was no market for factory seconds.
3. They send in their old one, we upgrade it, and send it back to them.
Obviously, this one had the most appeal, but again, the obstacles were too great. What if the ZTH100 had dead batteries when it got to us, did the customer realize that the upgrade would cause his unit to forget everything and go back to its factory settings, did the customer know that he would be without his ZTH100 for an indeterminate amount of time, did he understand that he would have to completely reload all their receivers once they got it back? Unfortunately, we felt that the logistics were impossible to handle.
4. The distributor replaces customers old ZTH100's with new ZTH100's, then when the distributor has 5 or 10 of them, they send them in to be updated (as an non-warranty, chargeable price) all at once, we send them back to the distributor who can then re-sell them as refurbished units.
But I don't think any of our distributors wanted to sell the old ones as "factory refurbished".
5. We ship the customer direct, a new ZTH100, he copies the data from his old one, to the new one, sends in his old one, we update it, then we send the old one back to him and he sends the new one back to us.
That sounded like a good idea, but you cannot make a copy of a copy, so once he got back his old one (which was now updated but also back to factory defaults), he would have no way of copying the data from the loaner unit back to his own unit (protocol limitation). Also, we would have no way to be sure we would get the loaner back and even when we did, we could never sell it as "new" and as I said before, no one wants to buy old ones "slightly used".
As you can see, all of these proposals had complications and problems.
Here are some facts that will help you understand the situation:
1. This is not a "bug-fix" it is an upgrade. None of us would think of going to our local electronics story and demanding that our old VCR's be "upgraded" so it would play DVD's. Although that is an obvious exaggeration, we felt that it is similar in nature.
2. Any ZTH100 that has its firmware upgraded, will lose all the node information, schedules, scenes, etc., so no matter what we do, the customer will have to reload everything into his ZTH100, regardless of if it is a new one or an upgraded one.
3. Some people would surely be reluctant to send us their ZTH100 because they have the misunderstanding that their receivers will "stop working" if they do. Their receiver units will still work manually, it is just that they will not have any schedules (timers), scenes, and the like.
4. We calculated the cost of doing the upgrade, shipping both ways, time involved, the possibility of new batteries, then need to include an entirely new instruction booklet, and it was clear that the cost was nearly the same as simply buying a new one.
Therefore, after a lot of thought, we decided that no matter how unpleasant it may seem, we just could not offer any sort of upgrade -- free or not. It is not just for this situation, but for the future. At some point down the road, we will have to make changes (undoubtedly many changes) to the hardware in order for it to accept the new software/firmware changes.
I know this has probably not done much to change your mind, but I do hope that now you understand why we did what we did, and that it was not done lightly. It was only done after a lot of thought, research and consideration.
Good luck with which ever Z-Wave products you decide to buy.
Thank You,
Phil K.
Phillip E. Kingery, http://www.act-solutions.com
Export & OEM Project Support, for:
- Powerline Control Components (PCC)
- Radio Frequency (RF) Z-Wave
Advanced Control Technologies, Inc. Indianapolis, IN 46278
Ph: 317.337.0100 Ext. 236, Fax: 317.337.0200
Email: [email protected]
Dear Mr. Breeden,
Your email was routed to me. Let me see if I can at least "respond" to your email, even though I doubt that I will be able to adequately explain our situation to your satisfaction (and believe me, this is not a canned "cut and paste" reply).
First, allow me to say that the opinions of all our customers are important to us. It is because of input from users such as you, that we have been able to plan the development of our products, even though in this situation, it is clear that you feel that we did a poor job of it.
Second, let me also say that the decision was not made lightly. We have had discussions upon discussions, upon meeting after meeting. Here are some of the problems with which we had to contend:
1. When we first designed the firmware and command set for the ZTHx00, we knew that there would be future necessary upgrades since we knew that as new protocol additions became available, we would have to allow for those new command sets.
2. We also know that we were limited by what was available "at that time". This meant that your ZTH100 had to be built using the only IC chip-set available at that time and we knew that it would have limited memory.
3. When we first designed the ZTH100, we knew that we would eventually need to add the command class that would enable it to configure future devices, like the ZTW100, but at that time, the ZTW100 didn't exist, and neither did the command class to operate it.
Therefore, we had to do the best we could and build a hand-held controller that would initialize, configure and operate those Z-Wave devices which were in existence at that time. However, your statement that you would "need to buy a new controller if I wanted to control/learn the new transmitter." is not entirely correct. Your existing ZTH100 will still be able to "add" the ZTW100 transmitter to your existing network (even though it will not know what to do with it), and then your HomeSeer computer controller will (soon) be able send the necessary commands to "associate" that new transmitter to which ever receiver (or receivers) you wish to control.
While at the recent Electronic House Expo in Long Beach CA, I spend some time with Rich Helmke of HomeSeer, and he was able do the necessary associations with the HomeSeer system. However, I can not speak for Rich or HomeSeer, so please do not take my statement as proof that the HomeSeer system will do that "right now". I have worked with Rich for many years and I know that he will want to do all the necessary testing and documentation before releasing this software upgrade.
Your statement that we, "...have no upgrade plan for the controllers", is unfortunately true, but not for the reasons you may think. We are working with many other Z-Wave partners on many new products. In the next 12 months, we hope to release over 20 new products for use in North America and Europe. After that, we may begin other projects that we haven't even thought of yet.
Do you know what those new products will be?
Unfortunately, neither do we. They do not yet exist. Therefore it is clearly impossible for us to include them into any ZTH100 we are manufacturing now. Plus, as new products are developed, by us or other Z-Wave partners, the enormous number of new commands that will be needed will undoubtedly require hardware upgrades to the ZTH100 before we add any software/firmware additions.
We did consider offering some sort of upgrade "program". But again, we saw so many inherent potential pitfalls that it was simply not a viable option. We considered many different ways to try and handle this:
1. Offer a discount on a new ZTH100 so they could keep their old one as a spare.
Unfortunately, we would not be able to offer enough of a discount to make it desirable to the customer. Besides, how would we monitor it. It would have to be controlled by our distributors and neither we nor they would have any mechanism in place to make sure only those users with the next previous version would get the discount. Imagine the bureaucracy that would be needed to keep such a program running.
2. Offer a trade-in for their old ZTH100 so they get a new one, we get their old one.
Unfortunately, we would have no use for the old one. We explored this idea, but it was clear that there was no market for factory seconds.
3. They send in their old one, we upgrade it, and send it back to them.
Obviously, this one had the most appeal, but again, the obstacles were too great. What if the ZTH100 had dead batteries when it got to us, did the customer realize that the upgrade would cause his unit to forget everything and go back to its factory settings, did the customer know that he would be without his ZTH100 for an indeterminate amount of time, did he understand that he would have to completely reload all their receivers once they got it back? Unfortunately, we felt that the logistics were impossible to handle.
4. The distributor replaces customers old ZTH100's with new ZTH100's, then when the distributor has 5 or 10 of them, they send them in to be updated (as an non-warranty, chargeable price) all at once, we send them back to the distributor who can then re-sell them as refurbished units.
But I don't think any of our distributors wanted to sell the old ones as "factory refurbished".
5. We ship the customer direct, a new ZTH100, he copies the data from his old one, to the new one, sends in his old one, we update it, then we send the old one back to him and he sends the new one back to us.
That sounded like a good idea, but you cannot make a copy of a copy, so once he got back his old one (which was now updated but also back to factory defaults), he would have no way of copying the data from the loaner unit back to his own unit (protocol limitation). Also, we would have no way to be sure we would get the loaner back and even when we did, we could never sell it as "new" and as I said before, no one wants to buy old ones "slightly used".
As you can see, all of these proposals had complications and problems.
Here are some facts that will help you understand the situation:
1. This is not a "bug-fix" it is an upgrade. None of us would think of going to our local electronics story and demanding that our old VCR's be "upgraded" so it would play DVD's. Although that is an obvious exaggeration, we felt that it is similar in nature.
2. Any ZTH100 that has its firmware upgraded, will lose all the node information, schedules, scenes, etc., so no matter what we do, the customer will have to reload everything into his ZTH100, regardless of if it is a new one or an upgraded one.
3. Some people would surely be reluctant to send us their ZTH100 because they have the misunderstanding that their receivers will "stop working" if they do. Their receiver units will still work manually, it is just that they will not have any schedules (timers), scenes, and the like.
4. We calculated the cost of doing the upgrade, shipping both ways, time involved, the possibility of new batteries, then need to include an entirely new instruction booklet, and it was clear that the cost was nearly the same as simply buying a new one.
Therefore, after a lot of thought, we decided that no matter how unpleasant it may seem, we just could not offer any sort of upgrade -- free or not. It is not just for this situation, but for the future. At some point down the road, we will have to make changes (undoubtedly many changes) to the hardware in order for it to accept the new software/firmware changes.
I know this has probably not done much to change your mind, but I do hope that now you understand why we did what we did, and that it was not done lightly. It was only done after a lot of thought, research and consideration.
Good luck with which ever Z-Wave products you decide to buy.
Thank You,
Phil K.
Phillip E. Kingery, http://www.act-solutions.com
Export & OEM Project Support, for:
- Powerline Control Components (PCC)
- Radio Frequency (RF) Z-Wave
Advanced Control Technologies, Inc. Indianapolis, IN 46278
Ph: 317.337.0100 Ext. 236, Fax: 317.337.0200
Email: [email protected]
That's actually a well written, honest and clear response, and does make sense in most cases. This is the price you pay for being an early adopter, which I personally usually don't mind either, but this is the first time I didn't jump on something new as I was afraid that the Z-wave protocol was going to change significantly. I am wondering how other manufactures are dealing with this issue.
mbreeden
Active Member
Here is my reply to ACT:
Dear Mr. Kingery:
I wanted to thank you for your quick and detailed response. I know ACT did not make this decision lightly and I hope I did not imply that. I think your user community was not looking for a free upgrade; it would have been nice but unrealistic. We are willing to pay a price for an upgrade but not the full cost of a new controller. You used the VCR example which is not a good representation of what we are discussing here. Let’s take a look at Homeseer; they are releasing a new upgrade to their product soon. Are they charging full price for the upgrade, no, they are not. When Microsoft releases a new copy of Window’s, do they charge full price for the upgrade. These examples represent two different companies (small and large) but both are customer focused.
Even if the controller is reset or the firmware is upgraded, I think people will not mind taking less then 30 minutes to relearn their network of devices instead of shelling out $60 dollars every time a new version of firmware is released. (It took me less then 10 minutes.) Here is another example: When Dell ships out a computer and the firmware/Bios needs updating, do they make you buy a new computer? And they have a way for the user to download and upgrade the Bios themselves. I hope in the future you or someone will make a controller that can be upgraded like a computer, PDA, Pronto, etc. I think it is shortsighted not too.
I hope you will reconsider your decision. You are in a customer driven industry. If you do not keep them happy then they will go elsewhere. Today you live in a small/tight community of users that communicated amongst each other. You can not afford to get a bad reputation with so many other players entering the market.
Thanks again for your time
Mike Breeden
Squintz:
Nice Email, I replied before I saw yours.
- Mike
Dear Mr. Kingery:
I wanted to thank you for your quick and detailed response. I know ACT did not make this decision lightly and I hope I did not imply that. I think your user community was not looking for a free upgrade; it would have been nice but unrealistic. We are willing to pay a price for an upgrade but not the full cost of a new controller. You used the VCR example which is not a good representation of what we are discussing here. Let’s take a look at Homeseer; they are releasing a new upgrade to their product soon. Are they charging full price for the upgrade, no, they are not. When Microsoft releases a new copy of Window’s, do they charge full price for the upgrade. These examples represent two different companies (small and large) but both are customer focused.
Even if the controller is reset or the firmware is upgraded, I think people will not mind taking less then 30 minutes to relearn their network of devices instead of shelling out $60 dollars every time a new version of firmware is released. (It took me less then 10 minutes.) Here is another example: When Dell ships out a computer and the firmware/Bios needs updating, do they make you buy a new computer? And they have a way for the user to download and upgrade the Bios themselves. I hope in the future you or someone will make a controller that can be upgraded like a computer, PDA, Pronto, etc. I think it is shortsighted not too.
I hope you will reconsider your decision. You are in a customer driven industry. If you do not keep them happy then they will go elsewhere. Today you live in a small/tight community of users that communicated amongst each other. You can not afford to get a bad reputation with so many other players entering the market.
Thanks again for your time
Mike Breeden
Squintz:
Nice Email, I replied before I saw yours.
- Mike
Squintz
Senior Member
Well put mbredeen... I think me make very valid points. Now its time for some of these other guys to join in on the fight. I am willing to buy one more remote but only if that remote is upgradable. I do understand their hardware limitations and there is nothing they can do about but think ahead. If memory is an issue then they need to design a remote with more than enough memory.. Either that or develope a PDA with Z-wave technology.
huggy59
Active Member
It seems to me that they should design an extensible protocol and a hardware upgrade plan that will stand up to the addition of future devices. Other companies and systems have done it, and hopefully they will put it together as well. I chalk the whole thing up to the newness of the company, rushing to get products out the door, and immaturity of the technology and standards surrounding it.
Like electron, I did not jump on this technology when it first appeared for these same reasons. Early adopters get their knuckles bloodied. Call it old age, but I'm tired of busted knuckles and I now just want things to run properly and reliably. I'm looking for a complete product line, too.
With Z-Wave that means I have to wait. That's my personal choice. You guys can fight the fight this time. I know eventually you will win. I wish you luck.
Like electron, I did not jump on this technology when it first appeared for these same reasons. Early adopters get their knuckles bloodied. Call it old age, but I'm tired of busted knuckles and I now just want things to run properly and reliably. I'm looking for a complete product line, too.
With Z-Wave that means I have to wait. That's my personal choice. You guys can fight the fight this time. I know eventually you will win. I wish you luck.
I think part of the problem here was starting with a "remote" paradigm. The initial release of Zwave stuff essentially functions like x10 with a palmpad. Yes, you can do scenes and other things from the remote, but it really doesn't add much to the user interface.
In my mind, it probably would have been better to start with a main controller or station. This could still be a relatively small box, but it could be made to be more easily upgraded. Something like the USB interface that HS uses would have been ideal. You don't need to require the end user to use a computer interface into it, but that would have been really easy to add. Think of how much nicer a web interface or PC-based GUI would look (even if it didn't do more). This could have easily updated firmware. There could still be the option to add devices like the way it's done with the remotes, now (the box could have the same interface).
Give the user the option of a web interface or using the remote-like interface on the same box.
You could also back up information from this box to the computer. Your box died and you need to buy a new one? Just download the configuration that you've saved.
I've never really been thrilled with the master-remote concept. It seems to work well, but we are starting to see the limitations.
There doesn't seem to be anything preventing the development of this box. Just put the functionality of the master remote into something like this. I think someone will have to come out with something like this sooner or later. Otherwise, people will start to "wise up" after they've bought their second or third remote.
In my mind, it probably would have been better to start with a main controller or station. This could still be a relatively small box, but it could be made to be more easily upgraded. Something like the USB interface that HS uses would have been ideal. You don't need to require the end user to use a computer interface into it, but that would have been really easy to add. Think of how much nicer a web interface or PC-based GUI would look (even if it didn't do more). This could have easily updated firmware. There could still be the option to add devices like the way it's done with the remotes, now (the box could have the same interface).
Give the user the option of a web interface or using the remote-like interface on the same box.
You could also back up information from this box to the computer. Your box died and you need to buy a new one? Just download the configuration that you've saved.
I've never really been thrilled with the master-remote concept. It seems to work well, but we are starting to see the limitations.
There doesn't seem to be anything preventing the development of this box. Just put the functionality of the master remote into something like this. I think someone will have to come out with something like this sooner or later. Otherwise, people will start to "wise up" after they've bought their second or third remote.
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