Thermostat Settings

[Mike]

I wondered that myself but had no hard data to further pursue that.... yet. That begs the question, why the morning cycle? Noise on the line because of other things at that time?

I was hoping to provide some data to drill down further on, but it seemed the interface to the thermostat was prone to noise (and I was expecting the shielded wire solution might yield the optimum results) since the morning symptom seems to have been reproduced a bit.

 

[noshali]

Folks,

I have nothing else running at that time. Kids get up at 7:15 am and I am gone by then.

I have checked by setting up tasks to change thermostat settign and they work fine as I manually trigger them. I see the changes happening.

But that is my only rule based on time for the thermostat.

regards,

 

[Spanky]

Make sure you have run the module enrollment which is menu 1 in installer programming. Just to make sure you did not add the M1XSP and did not enroll it into the system.


Try adding a DEBUG voice message that says the time, VM238, when the Rule fires to adjust the thermostat. This would verify the Rule is firing properly. This makes a nice alarm clock also.


An earlier reply message above showed how to do a Thermostat verification of temperature settings.

Another DEBUG idea is to program two functions keys as tasks. One task to raise the thermostat temperature and the other task to lower the thermostat temperature. Press the buttons and make sure the thermostat changes, even in the morning.

If we can figure out where the problem is, we can fix it! A little DEBUG helps.

 

[Mike]

Ok, some results: My heat was set to the proper heat temperature this morning and the rule fired to turn it off, but the temperature did not lower. I recieved an email saying it turned on and turned off, but when I checked it at 11:30AM or so it was still at 67. What I don't understand is why the correction rule didn't trigger (since 101 turned off and the temp was 67).

The XSP is enrolled (I have two of them enrolled, a keypad and a relay/output expander.)

I do plan on moving the thermostat and trying the shielded cable if it makes sense, but I wont get to that for a few weeks at least.

My complete rules are below (I only took the one out that calls me if the fire alarm goes off):

1 WHENEVER THE TIME IS 15 MINUTES AFTER SUNSET
THEN SET Kitchen, Sink [2 (A2)] TO 40% BRIGHT, FADE RATE = 0
THEN TURN Outside, Front [1 (A1)] ON, FADE RATE = 0
THEN TURN Garage, Outside [14 (A14)] ON, FADE RATE = 0
THEN SET Living Room, F [6 (A6)] TO 45% BRIGHT, FADE RATE = 0
2 WHENEVER THE TIME IS 11:00 PM
AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE SMTWT--
THEN TURN Kitchen, Sink [2 (A2)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
THEN TURN Outside, Front [1 (A1)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
THEN TURN Garage, Outside [14 (A14)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
THEN TURN Living Room, F [6 (A6)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
3 WHENEVER THE TIME IS 1:00 AM
AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE S-----S
THEN TURN Outside, Front [1 (A1)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
THEN TURN Kitchen, Sink [2 (A2)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
THEN TURN Garage, Outside [14 (A14)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
THEN TURN Living Room, F [6 (A6)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
4 WHENEVER THE TIME IS 6:00 AM
AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE -MTWTF-
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 67 DEG. F. (19 DEG. C.)
THEN TURN Output 100 ON FOR 2 MINS
THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 1 TO (Email 1)
5 WHENEVER THE TIME IS 8:05 AM
AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE -MTWTF-
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 60 DEG. F. (16 DEG. C.)
THEN TURN Output 101 ON FOR 2 MINS
THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 5 TO (Email 5)
6 WHENEVER THE TIME IS 5:00 PM
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 68 DEG. F. (20 DEG. C.)
THEN TURN Output 102 ON FOR 2 MINS
THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 3 TO (Email 3)
7 WHENEVER THE TIME IS 9:30 PM
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 60 DEG. F. (16 DEG. C.)
8 WHENEVER THE TIME IS 8:00 AM
AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE S-----S
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 68 DEG. F. (20 DEG. C.)
9 WHENEVER THE TIME IS 12:00 PM
AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE S-----S
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 60 DEG. F. (16 DEG. C.)

11 WHENEVER Output 100 STATE IS TURNED OFF
AND Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP IS ANY VALUE OTHER THAN 67 DEG. F. (19 DEG. C.)
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 67 DEG. F. (19 DEG. C.)
THEN TURN Output 100 ON FOR 2 MINS
THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 2 TO (Email 2)
12 WHENEVER Output 101 STATE IS TURNED OFF
AND Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP IS ANY VALUE OTHER THAN 60 DEG. F. (16 DEG. C.)
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 60 DEG. F. (16 DEG. C.)
THEN TURN Output 101 ON FOR 2 MINS
THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 6 TO (Email 6)
13 WHENEVER Output 102 STATE IS TURNED OFF
AND Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP IS ANY VALUE OTHER THAN 68 DEG. F. (20 DEG. C.)
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 68 DEG. F. (20 DEG. C.)
THEN TURN Output 102 ON FOR 2 MINS
THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 4 TO (Email 4)

 

[noshali]

I have a weird situation. I got an email from Brad at elk and he informed me that the serial port expanders can have addresses upto 7-8 (cant recall but definitely less than 10

I have a serial port expander that is connected to my RCS tr16 and it is on ADDR=14

I have done the module enrollment again and it is definitley 14. I also cannot see it in the 'show kps and expanders'. It correctly shows all the expanders that i have but this one.

Mind you that this works fine except for missing a rule this morning.

Am I lost once again or is this normal? COuld this be the reason. I have 2 serial expanders, ADDR=1 is connected to W800 and the second one is connected to ADDR=14. If this is any help then ADDR=14 was the first one that I added and got w800 added much later.

regards

 

[dlamb]

noshali,
The M1 supports 8 serial ports (Ports 0 to 7). Port 0 is the serial port that is built on the main board. The M1XSP set to address 1 is Port 1, the M1XSP set to address 2 is Port 2, and so on, up to M1XSP set to address 7, which is Port 7.

Mike,
Please try inserting into your rules a "Then" that will set the thermostat to the MODE that you would like the thermostat to be in, for instance "Auto". Insert that line before your Then set desired temp (Setpoint) change. Example:

THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) TO AUTO
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 67 DEG

If you get a chance to try this let us know if it helps.

Also,...In the following rule the time of day is 12:00PM (Noon). Is that what you intended or did you want midnight 12:00AM?

9 WHENEVER THE TIME IS 12:00 PM
AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE S-----S
THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 60 DEG

 

[Mike]

Thank you for the idea.

It was intended to be noon. That one was my wife's idea, she was thinking we might frequently go out in the afternoon so turn down the heat during that period. If we were home we could just turn it up. Of course once the alarm portion is finished this can be updated to understand if we are home or not. The heat is then turned on again at 5PM.

I updated the rules and will give a report on what happens.

I set the mode to HEAT (it is only used for heating now so that is the mode we set it to before tying it to the elk).

Updated rules listed below

        1   WHENEVER THE TIME IS 15 MINUTES AFTER SUNSET
                        THEN SET Kitchen, Sink [2 (A2)] TO 40% BRIGHT, FADE RATE = 0
                        THEN TURN Outside, Front [1 (A1)] ON, FADE RATE = 0
                        THEN TURN Garage, Outside [14 (A14)] ON, FADE RATE = 0
                        THEN SET Living Room, F [6 (A6)] TO 45% BRIGHT, FADE RATE = 0
        2   WHENEVER THE TIME IS 11:00 PM
                  AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE SMTWT--
                        THEN TURN Kitchen, Sink [2 (A2)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
                        THEN TURN Outside, Front [1 (A1)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
                        THEN TURN Garage, Outside [14 (A14)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
                        THEN TURN Living Room, F [6 (A6)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
        3   WHENEVER THE TIME IS 1:00 AM
                  AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE S-----S
                        THEN TURN Outside, Front [1 (A1)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
                        THEN TURN Kitchen, Sink [2 (A2)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
                        THEN TURN Garage, Outside [14 (A14)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
                        THEN TURN Living Room, F [6 (A6)] OFF, FADE RATE = 0
        4   WHENEVER THE TIME IS 6:00 AM
                  AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE -MTWTF-
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) TO HEAT
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 67 DEG. F. (19 DEG. C.)
                        THEN TURN Output 100 ON FOR 2 MINS
                        THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 1 TO  (Email 1)
        5   WHENEVER THE TIME IS 8:05 AM
                  AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE -MTWTF-
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) TO HEAT
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 60 DEG. F. (16 DEG. C.)
                        THEN TURN Output 101 ON FOR 2 MINS
                        THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 5 TO  (Email 5)
        6   WHENEVER THE TIME IS 5:00 PM
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) TO HEAT
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 68 DEG. F. (20 DEG. C.)
                        THEN TURN Output 102 ON FOR 2 MINS
                        THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 3 TO  (Email 3)
        7   WHENEVER THE TIME IS 9:30 PM
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) TO HEAT
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 60 DEG. F. (16 DEG. C.)
        8   WHENEVER THE TIME IS 8:00 AM
                  AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE S-----S
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) TO HEAT
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 68 DEG. F. (20 DEG. C.)
        9   WHENEVER THE TIME IS 12:00 PM
                  AND THE DAY(S) OF THE WEEK IS/ARE S-----S
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) TO HEAT
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 60 DEG. F. (16 DEG. C.)
       11   WHENEVER  Output 100 STATE IS TURNED OFF
                  AND Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP IS ANY VALUE OTHER THAN 67 DEG. F. (19 DEG. C.)
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) TO HEAT
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 67 DEG. F. (19 DEG. C.)
                        THEN TURN Output 100 ON FOR 2 MINS
                        THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 2 TO (Email 2)
       12   WHENEVER  Output 101 STATE IS TURNED OFF
                  AND Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP IS ANY VALUE OTHER THAN 60 DEG. F. (16 DEG. C.)
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) TO HEAT
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 60 DEG. F. (16 DEG. C.)
                        THEN TURN Output 101 ON FOR 2 MINS
                        THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 6 TO (Email 6)
       13   WHENEVER  Output 102 STATE IS TURNED OFF
                  AND Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP IS ANY VALUE OTHER THAN 68 DEG. F. (20 DEG. C.)
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) TO HEAT
                        THEN SET Kitchen (Tstat 1) HEATING DESIRED TEMP TO 68 DEG. F. (20 DEG. C.)
                        THEN TURN Output 102 ON FOR 2 MINS
                        THEN SEND EMAIL MESSAGE 4 TO (Email 4)

 

[dlamb]

Another thing that comes to mind, and I should have thought of it first, the Omnistats have a built in schedule that might be overriding your rule.
You can disable the schedules altogether by entering the Omnistat programming mode (installer set up) and changing a value at location 03 (I think). I don't have the instruction manual with me right now but I think it's the location with the different settings for selecting either Celsius/Fahrenheit. I believe there are 8 selections, choose one that makes the the thermostat non-programmable and the temperature display of your choice. That will eliminate the possibility that the thermostat is overriding the rule.

 

[Mike]

I had originally done that, but then seen the temp change no trigger (the issue we are discussing now). When I looked on the Elk site and online, everyone referenced blanking the current programming (setting the time to 12PM or 12AM or one notch above/below clears the programming (or close to that), I did this for all programs and verified that all programming is 'blanked').

At the time I thought perhaps the blanking was the better way to go since I found no references to anyone using that installer setting. I had forgotten about this.

I can go back and change this as well, but everything worked fine today. A little early to call it a success but I'll keep an eye on it and post the results. Actually I am going to not change the setting until I get a little more data (or I get a day this stops working).

 

[Mike]

It hasn't been a huge amount of time, but I have not seen any issues with the thermostat settings since we applied the HEAT setting before the temperature. Before I was getting a 'failure' once a week or so. I'll continue to watch but it seems like that was the issue.

Also, the emails do not indicate the OUTPUT rules are being triggered to correct it either.

I'll give another update after I've seen it work for more time, but thought some might find this helpful.

 

[Mike]

Another update: It was over 2 weeks of 100% reliability as far as I could tell, I removed the output logic and the emails.

The next day the morning heat did not kick on (I checked at about 6:20 or so and it was REMOTE, DESIRED 60, which it should have been 67). I'll keep an eye on it, I thought that there were no occurrences of the output email being triggered (meaning it always worked first try and the email that is triggered on the 'extension' logic Spanky recommended). It is possible I missed that however (all the titles are the same, so if I did not look carefully at the internal message I could have theoretically missed something).

Since it was right after the daylight savings change (that Monday), I thought perhaps I did not have the right time set and it was an hour off, but it is taking the time from the panel and it was correct when I checked it recently.

I have not noticed it happen again, but I will keep an eye on it. I thought for sure the recommendation to send mode to it first made sense. Maybe it was some sort of fluke.

 

[johnnynine]

Mike, I'm just curious if you have had better success with this over the past few months. I have been considering using the HAI thermostat with the Elk M1 as well.

 

[Mike]

This logic has not been triggered for awhile since it has been cooler (and the HAI hooked up to the cooling system is not in yet).

However, once I added the 'HEAT' setting, my issues seemed to go away from what I remember. I don't think I had any issues since then. It is getting closer to these being turned on again, I can keep an eye on them, but I think the major issue was not sending the heat setting.

When looking at a unit for the cooling I wondered if I should upgrade to one of the other types. I came to the conclusion that the HAI ones were fine. If you have it hooked into a controller like the elk, you aren't using it much either, so I did not see a reason to upgrade my setup.

You get the right combination of control and price with the HAI. The Aprilaire were nice, but cost several times that of a hai setup, and I did not feel it was worth it to put a message on the screen (considering that when it is controlled, you don't wind up changing the temperature much if you have a good program setup).

 

[johnnynine]

Thanks for the update Mike.

How is the WAF on the HAI? I have a honeywell programmable thermostat and my wife gets confused on what the displayed temperature currently indicates - Current temp vs Desired temp. I wish they showed both temperatures at the same time as I have misinterpretted it before as well.

 

[Mike]

On this one it shows the current temp, and if you hit the button it shows the desired. WAF was fine, as long as the rules executed, when they did not....

She liked having the heat come up before she got up, and having the house warm when she gets home. No issues when adjusting it either.