Thoughts on ZWave?

With a little ingenuity, there are lots of ways to rug-rat proof your plugin modules. Velcro (mostly a deterrent), double-sided tape (a little harder to bypass) or zip-ties (put one long zip tie behind the outlet plate, reinstall the outlet plate, and then lace the second one around the module so that it's male and female ends go through the one behind the plate. It may take 3 or 4 depending on the size of your module and length of the ties.) But there are definitely ways to prevent accidental, or semi-deliberate unplugging.

Zip ties, double-sided tape,and Velcro pretty much hold my whole system together. Maybe I should write a tutorial!
 
Understand that there many different ways to "rug-rat proof" devices, I do not have any rug-rats to contend with, (except when wife's relatives visit for extended stays, then it seems nothing wants to work anymore after they get through unplugging stuff so they can hook up their PlayStations and things while I'm at work.

If I started zip tying on the outlets, WAF would go way down!

The reason for my example was related to the way the technology appears (to me) to work.

On the HomeSeer forum, Rick Tinker advocates that Z-Wave will be marketed to the general consumer, not the technology oriented hobbist, and as such it will replace X10, since X10 is not consumer friendly, and X10 will go away (liberal paraphrasing on my part).

But, most of us (old folks) over the the last 25 -30 years, have seen many "consumer friendly" devices come on the market with predictions of killing off X10. They were either too expensive (Radio RA comes to mind) or too complex, or had too many quirks of their own.

I'm just wondering about quirks that Z-Wave MAY have, or maybe they don't have any, either way, I just want to have enough information going in, so I'll know what to expect before I invest several hundred dollars.

Really interested in the product, just have questions (My wife would probably ask, "When has that ever stopped you from buying toys")

Appreciate the posts and comments.


John
 
I hate to even speak up on this, since I may piss them off and screw myself out of a chance to support the product, but here are my thoughts...

My concerns (though the 1 minute loss is a very serious concern if true) are twofold.

1. Window of opportunity. Currently, they have something that no one else has, but how long will that last? Think about what they have. If I were looking to compete with them, the fact that they've put in a lot of time and money to develop what is 80% replicated by a standard WAP, wireless card, and TCP/IP stack. I'd be looking at what I could do to get a minimal TCP/IP stack on a chip, and wireless NIC chip down to a good price at bulk, and make use of the existing wireless IP network.

That would provide probably 85% of the functionality they have, and you'd just have to add the product specific functionality to the modules themselves, and you could use a computer interface for the installation programming. I've not doing the analysis myself, but I couldn't imagine that with a fairly short period of time, that this type of setup would become easily price competitive, for a fraction of the investment. When you plug the device in, it does a broadcast to find the master programmer and asks to be let in and given an IP address and security key, and the user can bring up the configuration program and find any modules waiting to be let in and let them in if they they choose to.

You could argue that it wouldn't be as robust, but nothing wireless is going to be a 100%, since it will always be subject to

2. Cost of entry. I'm worried that they are going to make the cost of entry too high for folks like me, vendors of automation products. This makes it less likely that they will be supported by any open source-y or free type products at all, and even folks like me with commercial products but early in the company bootstrapping cycle will not be able to afford the price.


These two things could be seen as danger signs. Given that they won't have their unique position forever, and that the means to compete with them using mostly existing infrastructure exists (and therefore could be done by a wireless or internet equipment company at what to them would be a small cost), if they don't concentrate early on on market saturation and making their product name synonymous with wireless appliance control, they may pay for it later. I think that they should be do everything to help every automation system vendor out there to support their product and make it as easy as possible, and certainly not require some number of thousands of dollars for the right to support the product. They would sell more hardware and they could quickly entrench themselves in that market to the point that a competitor would have a high barrier to entry.

But I'm worried that they are going to take a 'high end' approach to what is not a high end product, and hurt themselves longer term. If you have a system that is supposed to appeal to the mid to lower end of the automation market (and clearly the high end can afford wired systems) you need to get it supported by products that can target that market. And if the tools to build a competitive product with mostly off the shelf hardware exists, all the more reason.

Then again, I could be completely wrong, and someone who knows more about marketing can feel free to correct me.
 
I couldn't agree more with both John and Dean.

I too remember the hype of RadioRA...

Personally, I'm redoing (all new switches) my house (3rd time in 3 years) with Lightolier, not Zwave. I need the functionality that's not going to be in Zwave in the near future. Who knows, maybe I'll retrofit again in a year but I doubt it.
 
That's a pretty impressive post Dean (welcome to Cocoontech btw).

Thanks :) I'm sure it's nothing that a lot of people aren't aware of, and I'm suprized that Intel signed up wtih them instead of just doing something themselves along the lines of what I indicated above. But clearly companies like Ascend or LinkSys or Cisco and what not all could attack that kind of project, and it wouldn't be a big stretch for them (either in terms of technical or core market criteria.) They all have the expertise to do all the hard stuff involved related to the networking and already are moving IP based hardware in bulk, so they could afford to sell fairly cheaply.
 
I was wondering myself how hard it would be to create a module with a basic tcp/ip stack (you hear about these coin sized webservers all the time) that can control power to your regular switches and outlets, so you could keep the original looks, but yet access it by ip.
 
If you look at the Global Cache GC-100 (www.globalcache.com), it's an IP based box. It's an expandable box, but the part where the actual network module is (the left most section) doesn't appear to me to be even as big as an X-10 module. It could be pretty limited function as well. The other problem is that you have to get the wireless part in there, but a PCMCIA wireless card is tiny and flat also, so clearly that doesn't need a lot of room.

I don't know what the cost issues are, but given the impetus to get more and more stuff web enabled, I can't imagine that economies of scale won't come into play in this area. Given that you can buy a WAP for about $70 now, which has WAY more functionality than these modules would need, and about $50 for a PCMCIA wireless card which also is more complex and general purpose than this would required, it seems like that time is not too far off.
 
my pocket pc has built in wifi, so I can't imagine the chip itself being that big, combine that with a coin sized webserver/tcpip stack and some tiny parts to control the actual current to the switches/outlets, and you got a winner. I am more than willing to replace my single gang boxes with double gang boxes to hide the tcp/ip 'adapter' if I get to keep my regular switches and outlets.
 
according to this Zen-Sys flash animation ( http://www.zen-sys.com/media/57.htm ) , Z-wave is a 2way protocol, supporting acknolowedgements when a command has been executed. Am I missing something or are they talking about the polling? I was under the impression there was no true 2way action going on.
 
http://www.casaworks.com

Thats pretty interesting, according to the zensys site, they are a "Partner" so I'm going to assume that the wireless sensors that casaworks talks about uses zwave. And the whole system for a/v distribution over cat5/6 looks really nice.
 
It does look interesting. It also looks like they haven't released any products yet but we should probably keep an eye out for them. I'll see if tey have anything at the EHExpo show next month.
 
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