TV distribution with VOD/PPV

[DotNetDog]

OK, I've been trying to figure out how to handle TV distribution in my upcoming new house. I think that I've been struggling with the big picture and now I need to start with small sample scenarios and see how they scale up.

Soooo...

Let's say we have grandma living in a one bedroom house. She has ComCast TV and watches live TV, some on demand TV, and occasionally pay-per-view movies.

Grandma has 3 TVs; one in her family room, one in her bedroom and one in the breakfast room.

It seems ridiculous to require one person to rent 3 set top boxes from ComCast (I know, I said ComCast and ridiculous in the same sentence).

So one solution that I think would work is to use IR distribution. One set top box would be used and the IR receivers would be placed at each TV. Would this work?

OK, now if the above scenario works, let's slightly complicate it. Now grandma does not live alone. Grandpa is still around.

So we still have the same 3 TVs and the same viewing habits. But now we have 2 people in the house. My first thought would be to add a 2nd set top box. However, this would get confusing quickly.

If grandma is in the kitchen watching the breakfast room TV and then grandpa wants to watch TV in the family room...which IR blaster would they east use? Are set top boxes assigned to a person? That would confuse grand-folks pretty quickly.

So if IR distribution is the solution then it seems like there needs to be some kind of intelligent controller that will dynamically assign a source as requested. But I'm just not sure how this would even work.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[AnthonyZ]

Xantech RT8, programmable remote control (a la URC) so you can add the trigger command to macros and done.

 

[Dave X10]

.......... Now grandma does not live alone. Grandpa is still around.

Of course, the easiest solution here is get rid of grandpa. There are many nice facilities for older people... perhaps he might be happier with assisted living.

Of course (all joking aside) if grandpa is going to be hanging around. I would also use the 2 box system... only assign one box to a specific TV. Most likely grandpa is also going to want Tivo... and that would also likely be part of the same set-top/TV viewing area. Whereas the viewing area traditionally is the living room... it could be another area. Since both are older now... health problems could quickly turn the bedroom into the main viewing area.. even if they rarely watch that TV now.

The nice thing about it being remotely located (and controlled with IR) is nether grandpa or grandma want to move equipment or are any good with hooking up the wires and such.

 

[sic0048]

There are lots of possible solutions: using a SageTV system and extenders to view any material at any TV, or perhaps using a video matrix switch to distribute the 2 STBs between the three TVs, etc, etc, etc.

But I think the easiest thing to do is simply rent the three STB. Any other solution is going to cost $$$ too, so at least be renting the boxes, you spread the cost out over months/years rather than spending money upfront.

 

[DotNetDog]

AnthonyZ: The Xantech sounds interesting. I'll look into it.

As for my "grandma" and "grandpa" users, they are only there to create a simple scenario. I'm trying to understand how to distribute ComCast with VOD and PPV throughtout my new house. Scalability will be required. Although we will have 5 people living in the house (including 1 grandma), there will be 12 TV drops. For instance, grandma will have her own area that includes a small kitchen and breakfast room.

All-in-all there are 12 TV locations. I really don't want to pay ComCast for 12 set top boxes. Also, I want to record TV so we can watch it whenever; multiple DVRs is definitely out. Some sort of Media Center setup with IR distribution sounds like it should solve my needs but I just can't figure out how. The VOD and PPV seem to be the "gotcha's". Maybe AnthonyB's suggestion is the cat's meow. I'll look into it...

 

[AnthonyZ]

Another (and IMO, better option) is to skip the RT8 (I mentioned because you mentioned IR distribution in the first post) to use a programmable remote and RF base station. As an example, a URC MX980 and URC MRF350. Personally, I would also recommend the matrix switch option. I have to plug Avocation Systems here, by far and away the best vendor to work with in the industry. Affordable pricing on TOP NOTCH equipment (not the el cheapo build quality, lousy/lossy traces of the so-called "budget" switches.

 

[George M]

As Antonny mentioned, they first major item to deside on is how are you going to distribute the video / audio. A large matrix switch is definately the answer for 12 tv locations. You can then have only the number of set top boxes of people who would be watching tv / moveis / etc at ONE TIME. Just make sure that the matrix that will distribute the signal will handle High Bandwith (HDTV). Many you see for sale on Ebay do not do that.

The next hurdle is how to wire for the HDTV from the matrix to the locations. One solution is to run component cable to each location. Second options (which I used) is to run 2 CAT5e or CAT 6 cables to each location - then have powered baluns on each one. I dont have the exact make and model that I have used handy. These unis will carry component, video, audio, digital audio, and IR over the two CAT5 cables.

 

[DotNetDog]

The A/V matrix with baluns sounds interesting. However, I'm wondering how/if the source could be selected in some kind of exclusive mode. For instance, currently (with ComCast) I can configure content filters. In other words, my kids cannot select any program that is R rated.

So going with a matrix, I would want it to work so that when I choose a source (one of the set top boxes) then no one else can select that source until I'm done with it. This would prevent my kids from checking out the R-rated movie that mom and dad are watching.

Can an A/V matrix do exclusive source selections?

 

[sic0048]

Yeah, this post took a turn when we went from 2 STB and 3 TVs to 12 TVs.......

Most matrix switchers allow any source to be viewed on any TV - even if that source is being viewed on another TV. Looking for the capacity to limit the viewer at the switch level isn't the right method anyway. What would prevent the kids from simply turning on another STB and watching an R (or worse) movie that way?

If you want that type of capability, you can do it through some sort of automation system. But now we are really getting into some complex and $$$ solutions.

I'd recommend that you first right down all the functions and features of a system that you want. Then I would write down your budget. Then come back to us and let us know what those two lists look like and we can help figure out what you can or can't do based on your budget.

 

[DotNetDog]

Yeah, this post took a turn when we went from 2 STB and 3 TVs to 12 TVs.......

Most matrix switchers allow any source to be viewed on any TV - even if that source is being viewed on another TV. Looking for the capacity to limit the viewer at the switch level isn't the right method anyway. What would prevent the kids from simply turning on another STB and watching an R (or worse) movie that way?

If you want that type of capability, you can do it through some sort of automation system. But now we are really getting into some complex and $$$ solutions.

I'd recommend that you first right down all the functions and features of a system that you want. Then I would write down your budget. Then come back to us and let us know what those two lists look like and we can help figure out what you can or can't do based on your budget.

Yeah, I beginning to think that paying ComCast for multiple set top boxes is simply the best/cheapest way (for now). I'll soon be talking to a local A/V dealer/installer but I suspect that the cost will quickly become prohibitive...at least, compared to just paying for multiple STBs.

 

[Dave X10]

Yeah, I beginning to think that paying ComCast for multiple set top boxes is simply the best/cheapest way (for now). I'll soon be talking to a local A/V dealer/installer but I suspect that the cost will quickly become prohibitive...at least, compared to just paying for multiple STBs.

I pay 8 bucks a month per set-top box here. Even in my small home... if I had a box at every drop.. it would cost more in boxes than what I now pay in electric.

It is just the wife and I [now]... so I guess I could workout a configuration with IR and IR switchers in an equipment closet.. and get by with two cable boxes. But in reality... I am only using the one box now. Although I have thought of adding a 2nd box in the theater. But since we only view 4-6 DVD movies a month and then maybe 2 or sometimes 3 TV events a YEAR. It hardly seems worth the nearly 100 bucks a year. I can generally view what TV show I want via local HD broadcast. And... I could move the box in minutes.. if I ever wanted to.

The TV I have in my office is connected to cable [directly with no box]... but only so I can get cable news. Bedroom TV's (since the kids are grown and gone) rarely get much use. And as far as I am concerned... I hope it stays that way.. we have them [mostly] in case one of us is ill. They are also connected direct to cable... with no box. But with DVD players as well.

I know if our daughter was still home.... I certainly would NOT spring for a set-top box in her room... the cable connection and 2nd phone line was a big enough of a mistake. Not to mention the Xbox.

The wife and I just recently purchased a wii (not to mention several games and accessories) and we have been debating where the wii should live. I think the theater... she says living room. I've held firm that it belongs in the theater... however it remains setup in the living room.

I guess I have a lot of figuring out how to best change/alter/fix my own TV distribution. Thanks for getting me thinking about it DotNetDog.

 

[DotNetDog]

I pay 8 bucks a month per set-top box here. Even in my small home... if I had a box at every drop.. it would cost more in boxes than what I now pay in electric.

It is just the wife and I [now]... so I guess I could workout a configuration with IR and IR switchers in an equipment closet.. and get by with two cable boxes. But in reality... I am only using the one box now. Although I have thought of adding a 2nd box in the theater. But since we only view 4-6 DVD movies a month and then maybe 2 or sometimes 3 TV events a YEAR. It hardly seems worth the nearly 100 bucks a year. I can generally view what TV show I want via local HD broadcast. And... I could move the box in minutes.. if I ever wanted to.

The TV I have in my office is connected to cable [directly with no box]... but only so I can get cable news. Bedroom TV's (since the kids are grown and gone) rarely get much use. And as far as I am concerned... I hope it stays that way.. we have them [mostly] in case one of us is ill. They are also connected direct to cable... with no box. But with DVD players as well.

I know if our daughter was still home.... I certainly would NOT spring for a set-top box in her room... the cable connection and 2nd phone line was a big enough of a mistake. Not to mention the Xbox.

The wife and I just recently purchased a wii (not to mention several games and accessories) and we have been debating where the wii should live. I think the theater... she says living room. I've held firm that it belongs in the theater... however it remains setup in the living room.

I guess I have a lot of figuring out how to best change/alter/fix my own TV distribution. Thanks for getting me thinking about it DotNetDog.

Yeah...this is really frustrating. If I were to actually want the ability to watch TV from any of 12 locations then the pure ComCast solution would cost me $1152 PER YEAR! Ugghhh! You would think there would be a reasonable solution for less than 2 (or 3) years of the ComCast cost. But as I look into A/V distribution I keep running into VERY expensive solutions.

Well, I'm still wrestling with this one...

 

[sic0048]

A matrix switch can easily switch audio and video signals (component video is most common). You could have as many/few STB as desired, and then use the matrix switch to view any of them on any of the 12 TVs. That part is easy. The hard part comes in trying to control the matrix switch.

Most matrix switchers use serial control in lue of the less reliable IR control. So you would need some sort of device that can communicate via RS-232 serial port and a interface to speak the switcher's control protocol (or language). This could be a computer or some hardware device.

Then you also have to have local control at each TV. The most inexpensive solution is to use a IR distribution system, but even that gets cumbersome with 12 different locations. Other options include RF remotes or some sort of hardwired control pad.

Getting a matrix switcher that has 12 HD outputs is going to be pretty expense. I suspect it would actually be cheaper to get two smaller units (like 2 16x8 units). You would have to split the source (STB) outputs since you have to switchers to feed, but that is doable IMHO.

You also have to figure out what type of distribution you are going to use to get the video and audio signals back to each TV. If you can run new wires easily, then using precision coaxial cable it is cheapest solution. However, it will still run $250-300 per 1000' roll of single wire precision coaxial (ie not a bundle). If you cannot run new wires, then the solution becomes much more complex. You'll also need to run a cat5e for IR distribution if that is the solution you choose. I'd recommend running several cat5e wires while you are at it for future use (perhaps HDMI, or network for a new network friendly TV, etc).

Even using used equipment, my rough guess at expenses are this:
- 2x 16x8 Matrix Switchers ($250-$500 each off EBay) = $700 estimate
- 2x 795 and 796 Xantech multi zone IR distribution blocks = $600
- 12 LCD/Plasma friendly IR receivers = $900
- USB-UIRT for IR interface with computer = $60
- Computer & Software to run everything = $600 (but that is a total guess really)
- Precision Coaxial Cable = $300 (if you get by with 1 roll, but with 5 cables per TV, that 1000' roll only really give about 200' of total distance)
- 120 crimp RCA connectors to terminate coaxial cable = $300
- Cat5e wire = $75
- Overages (10%) = $325

Total estimate (without tool or labor and with using used matrix switchers) = $3860.00
This stuff does get real expensive real quick!

 

[sic0048]

Given the above expense, I think a SageTV solution is probably the cheapest and easiest solution of all. You need 1 computer to record from your cable TV boxes. You can add as many tuners as you want boxes. You need one cable box/tuner combination for each concurrent TV show you want to watch at the same time. You then use the SageTV HD Theater HD extenders at each TV to view the material. You can also view pictures, play music, watch online material, watch ripped DVDs, etc all with the HD Theater. The HD Theater also comes with a remote and communicated with the server over the netword, so you don't need to worry about any IR distribution system.

So here is a cost comparison using a SageTV solution:

1 - Computer and SageTV software = $650
12 - HD Theaters (one for each TV) at $180 each = $2,160
1 - new Gigabit network switch = $500
1 - HDHomeRun tuner (allows recording of two clear QAM stations at one time) = $150
3 - Hauppauge HD-PVRs - allows recording of digital cable output from STB at $210 each = $630


That totals $4090, but is a full system with an HD Theater at every TV and the tuners to record HD and Digital cable. If you don't need a HD-Theater at every TV (or will buy them as needed over time) or you don't need to record three HD/Digital TV shows at one time (actually it could be 5 shows at once with the HDHR), then the costs would be less.

It is certainly an easier system to put together and uses new equipment instead of used equipment. It also allows you a much richer experience since the SageTV system does tons more than a cable DVR system.

Personally I think something like the Sage system is going to be a better experience in the long run and should cost less due to all the labor expenses in the Matrix Switch option.

 

[DotNetDog]

A matrix switch can easily switch audio and video signals (component video is most common). You could have as many/few STB as desired, and then use the matrix switch to view any of them on any of the 12 TVs. That part is easy. The hard part comes in trying to control the matrix switch.

Most matrix switchers use serial control in lue of the less reliable IR control. So you would need some sort of device that can communicate via RS-232 serial port and a interface to speak the switcher's control protocol (or language). This could be a computer or some hardware device.

Then you also have to have local control at each TV. The most inexpensive solution is to use a IR distribution system, but even that gets cumbersome with 12 different locations. Other options include RF remotes or some sort of hardwired control pad.

Getting a matrix switcher that has 12 HD outputs is going to be pretty expense. I suspect it would actually be cheaper to get two smaller units (like 2 16x8 units). You would have to split the source (STB) outputs since you have to switchers to feed, but that is doable IMHO.

You also have to figure out what type of distribution you are going to use to get the video and audio signals back to each TV. If you can run new wires easily, then using precision coaxial cable it is cheapest solution. However, it will still run $250-300 per 1000' roll of single wire precision coaxial (ie not a bundle). If you cannot run new wires, then the solution becomes much more complex. You'll also need to run a cat5e for IR distribution if that is the solution you choose. I'd recommend running several cat5e wires while you are at it for future use (perhaps HDMI, or network for a new network friendly TV, etc).

Even using used equipment, my rough guess at expenses are this:
- 2x 16x8 Matrix Switchers ($250-$500 each off EBay) = $700 estimate
- 2x 795 and 796 Xantech multi zone IR distribution blocks = $600
- 12 LCD/Plasma friendly IR receivers = $900
- USB-UIRT for IR interface with computer = $60
- Computer & Software to run everything = $600 (but that is a total guess really)
- Precision Coaxial Cable = $300 (if you get by with 1 roll, but with 5 cables per TV, that 1000' roll only really give about 200' of total distance)
- 120 crimp RCA connectors to terminate coaxial cable = $300
- Cat5e wire = $75
- Overages (10%) = $325

Total estimate (without tool or labor and with using used matrix switchers) = $3860.00
This stuff does get real expensive real quick!

Thanks! This is great info. As far as wiring...this is for a house that hasn't even started construction yet (next month). I plan to wire..wire...wire! I just comparing my options so I really thanks you (and everyone) for your comments.

I'm definitely not an A/V person (it shows, too). So I came into this thinking...surely there must be a solution that is cheaper or (at least) price competitive with ComCast.

I just contacted ComCast and the monthly fee for a HD set top box is $6.95...or approximately $7. So for 12 locations that would be $1008 per year for a purely ComCast solution.

Here is what I would like to have:

# | TV Location | Viewing Needs
---+------------------------+--------------------------
1 | Master Bedroom | Live, Recorded, VOD, PPV
2 | Kid #1 Bedroom | Live, Recorded
3 | Kid #2 Bedroom | Live, Recorded
4 | Guest #1 Bedroom | Live, Recorded
5 | In-law Bedroom | Live, Recorded
6 | In-law Kitchen | Live, Recorded
7 | Guest #2 Bedroom | Live, Recorded
8 | Great Room | Live, Recorded, VOD, PPV
9 | Keeping Room | Live, Recorded, VOD, PPV
10 | Kitchen | Live, Recorded
11 | Basement Theater | Live, Recorded, VOD, PPV
12 | Basement Exercise Room | Live, Recorded



(Darn formatting! This looked OK in monospaced font!)