uber-simple HV wiring: Electrician really needed?

[Del91574]

@ work:
 
2011 NEC 300.9 and 334.12(B)(4) are your references....followed by 340.10 uf cable uses permitted (4) installed as non.metaiic sheathed cable. In your locale ave the inspector read 358.22 (2005) and then tell him to read article 334 to see if he can find where it is prohibited. Even in the earlier code cycles it was not forbidden.

That said Romex is not allowed in wet locations (conduit) however UF would be...the difference being the THHN vs. THWN conductors within the jackets (though this is assumption, as they are unmarked). You are not, however, allowed to remove the jacket and run the individual conductors within a conduit (individual conductors not marked).
 
In the case of Romex in conduits within a dry space, once you do the calcs and figure the fill, size the conduit for no more than a 55% fill,then the derating, it's legal, no distance restrictions.
 
Also, NM would technically be legal in conduit in a dry location, but generally it's going to be preferred to pull individual conductors for ease (or transition between NM and conduit conductors at a JB).
 
It's a huge grey area and subject to interpretation in both directions....and can be argued to no end, however if it was "illegal" they would not make the NM to EMT connectors.

 

[Del91574]

Wiremold 500 & 700 series is your friend....in the case where you can't conceal wiring, it is what it is. Nicer than PVC, though I'm on the fence about EMT...though in a completely finished application, it looks nicer.

Cuz, uh, I didn't know about wiremold and now I bought (and installed half of) all this PVC conduit ;-)
 
Off to do research on what wiremold is...

 

[IVB]

Called in an electrician. Uh, yeah, this is what he said. (I had him cost out some new runs so I could get a handle on what he'd charge for the bigger K&T job).  Hopefully now people understand why I have such a fundamental distrust of tradesmen.  It is trivially easy to get to the other side of my ceiling (1 story house, blow in insulation, nothing on top), and the crawlspace under subfloor is 4' high. This is the simplest house ever to work on.
 

(this one has him cutting holes and burying it)
1. Front Entry Switch and Light
Install new wall switch in interior entry hall wall or exterior stucco entry porch wall.
Connect to new AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupting) 20Amp, 120 Volt grounded Branch Circuit.
Install new wiring to ceiling light fixture including junctionbox if and as needed.
NOTE: Patching and repairing may be required and is notincluded. Patching available on request.
Time and Materials Basis, see below.
NOTE 2: May require new Load Side Raceway (Seebelow).
Estimated cost: $1000. Actual may be less or more.
 
#2 is similar to #1 in a different location.
 
#3: (this one runs to the PVC or wiremold above)

Kid’s Bedroom Closet Light Install new wall switch and fluorescent light fixture abovedoor in closet.
Connect to new AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupting) 20Amp, 120 Volt grounded Branch Circuit. NOTE: can be same as above.
Time and Materials Basis, see below.
Estimated cost: $900. Actual may be less or more.

 
#4: (look at K&T)

Inspection - Consultation Inspect existing old knob and tube wiring including a representative sample of all interior wiring especially as
regards to grounding and safety.
Verbally report to owner or agent and provide writtenestimate, particularly with all items which require actionimmediately or in the future.
Time and Materials Basis, see below.
Estimated cost: $300. Actual may be less or more

 
#5 Load Side Raceway Install new 1 and 1/2” Conduit from existing Main Electrical Service to large junction box in crawl area.
This will serve as the conduit for circuits from the Main Electrical Service into the house for present and future work.
NOTE: There are multiple existing smaller Load Side Raceways which may be useable for work above but
which are not ideal for continuing work. It may be possible to use one or more of them in the short term but a larger one may be required even for the work above.
Time and Materials Basis, see below.
Estimated cost: $900. Actual may be less or more
 

Time and Materials Pricing Basis - Crew +++
Work to be done on Time & Materials Basis as follows:
All labor @ $115 per hour per man or $230/2 man crew hour, $345/3 man crew hour and so on.
Materials at cost + 10%.
Apprentice labor @ $55 per hour.
Other expenses, if any, as incurred.
Minimum charge is for two single man hours ($230) or two crew hours (priced by size of crew).
Time billed is for all time related to job including all site work, one way traveling, special material acquisition, loading and cleanup.

 

[IVB]

sorry, not sure why the formatting is funky. 

 

[Madcodger]

IVB,

Get 2 more estimates. I don't know where you're located or how you found this electrician, but there are many honest tradesmen / craftsmen. Once you find one you like that does quality work at a reasonable (but not cheap) price, reward them with your loyalty and recommend them to others. If you're in a neighborhood with many older homes, do neighbors have a recommendation of people / companies they use? And rather than "fly blind" into this, you might even try Angie's List if other sources prove unhelpful for your area. Some of the guys on here will cringe when I say that but it's better than no info at all for trying to find an electrician you can work with.

 

[IVB]

I'm in the SF Bay Area and sadly, this was a referral. I have not had luck finding an honest electrician who's good and willing to do sub $5K projects. Most want the $10K to $40K full house redo projects. The ones who are available are either painfully slow to rack up hours or seriously sketchy. I've been examining all my HV closely, rather annoyed at what I'm finding with even the union labor that was hyper expensive. If I was licensed and good at HV I'd rip it all out and start over.

I'll keep looking, but eminently disgusted right now.

 

[az1324]

The hourly and materials charges don't seem unreasonable.  It is the estimate of each task that is overbudgeted.  I would simply tell him "look I could complete those projects in xx hours so if you can do it then I'll pay your hourly and materials.  If you want to use an apprentice then cut down the hours by xx".  It's amazing how much negotiating power one has with a little knowledge.  You can even offer to do some of the prep to further reduce his workload.  If he has so many job opportunities that he can afford to pass then nothing to be done about that.  On to the next one.

 

[Madcodger]

Agree w/ az. Also, the type of work you describe is 1 electrician + 1 apprentice, max. References to crews (of presumably multiple electricians) may be boilerplate, but are inappropriate here.

Remember, too, that when some guys don't want to do a job they jack up the price to crazy levels. Just look for another electrician.

 

[Del91574]

Charges are definately in line for electrical labor. Even consdering materials, don't forget the arc fault breakers, which are required depending on the code cycle in your area (not in mine just yet) brings a breaker charge from something like $5-10 up to around $50, just in materials alone. From what it sounds like, with copper and conduit, that's really well within line. I don't know the distances and difficulties involved in getting from A-B and how many man-hours vs. materials for the estimates.
 
In response to AZ's statement regarding apprentice labor....it's generally not legal to have an apprentice work by themselves if the trade requires a licensed/certified/competent installer. I'd have to look up CA, but in my state, it's strict enough that an apprentice must be within direct audible range of the licensed party and can't work without one. Knowing what I've seen in the field, I wouldn't want an apprentice to work on my project without having a licensed guy going over the work as it's being performed.
 
If this is the simplest house to ever work on, then why is there so many conduits, raceways and other items even being considered or needed...like under the house? Why is it so difficult to fish in cable, even as a novice? How about pulling AC/BX/MC cable in or getting the install to a point where the cabling can go from a non-concealed location to a concealed run?

I'm not giving a hard time, but something isn't adding up if you're saying it's simple to run wire in the house and a skilled tradesperson is seeing something different.

 

[IVB]

I'm not the only one saying it, I had a union shop come in at $150/run several years ago, including fishing & mounting new electrical sockets, run to 2 new half-sized breakers. And now this skilled tradesperson just quoted $1K/run (after verbally telling me $500/run).  It reminded me of when I wanted to do some quasi-major remodel work done, and one of the guys told me he basically does value-based estimates. At the time real estate was about $450/sq ft, he bluntly told me most people charge just under that as they know the owners would get it back & more. He quoted $400/sqft on expansion.  Suddenly the other quote I got made a lot more sense.
 
The big productivity tax i'm paying for (both wiring & physical stuff) is that this is a 102 year old house thats been extended by 4 different owners. The wiring seems to be an absolute mess, over the past 50 years it looks like organic growth has resulted in cacophony, like 5 different raceways going into the box because the new electrician didn't feel like opening up the existing one since they wouldn't bill as much for it. I personally paid for 2 of the raceways, but this was in my pre-CT and pre-LV wiring days when it was all black magic to me.
 
Speaking of which, I have a request, but will start a clean, non-complaining thread for that.

 

[az1324]

In response to AZ's statement regarding apprentice labor....it's generally not legal to have an apprentice work by themselves if the trade requires a licensed/certified/competent installer. I'd have to look up CA, but in my state, it's strict enough that an apprentice must be within direct audible range of the licensed party and can't work without one. Knowing what I've seen in the field, I wouldn't want an apprentice to work on my project without having a licensed guy going over the work as it's being performed.

I meant an apprentice as a second hand to make the work go faster thus reducing the job time, but increasing the hourly.

 

[tmbrown97]

In response to AZ's statement regarding apprentice labor....it's generally not legal to have an apprentice work by themselves if the trade requires a licensed/certified/competent installer. I'd have to look up CA, but in my state, it's strict enough that an apprentice must be within direct audible range of the licensed party and can't work without one. Knowing what I've seen in the field, I wouldn't want an apprentice to work on my project without having a licensed guy going over the work as it's being performed.

In CA, I know that they make licensing fairly difficult... it's not uncommon at all for only one person in the company to be a fully licensed electrician, at least with a contractor's license - and as far as the CSLB is concerned, it's that RME (responsible employee) who's license is on the documentation, signage, permits, etc. 
 
As for what's required to keep the unions happy and all that, I don't know - but it's entirely possible for the person who holds the contractor's license to never once see the job.

 

[Del91574]

I would believe that CA is not much off the path compared to where I'm at....
 
You have someone that holds the electrical contractor's license, then you have licensed journeymen. The contractor has the liability, insurance, etc., but the journemen are who are deemed "qualified" by the state. The apprentices are exactly that, and for all intents and purposes, labor.
 
From what I've read, CA does require a license to be an electrician and a different one for electrical contractor, so I'd go with the assumptions I mentioned.