Uh oh... gotta cut in-wall metal conduit for new outlet!

[miamicanes]

Well, at the moment the wiring has kind of taken second place to the mold problem. Sigh. If anything, I guess I now have free reign to run real, honest-to-god conduit for the cat5 bundle, too, since most of the wall's lower two feet of drywall has now been removed:





I didn't make it all the way left to the wall's original outlet to see what's around IT... after the first 10 feet of removal, I noticed more dust in the air than I really felt comfortable being around given its likely mold content, so I decided to call it a night and take a shower right away (I was wearing a mask, though).

The plot has definitely thickened, though. Remember my second theory about the horizontal furring strip acting as a barrier? Out the window. Look at the pics... the strip ends a few inches to the right of the first pic's area. Remember my first theory about the conduit acting as a path for rainwater? Back in consideration (same reason). But both theories are seriously in doubt, because the stain's area on the right side of the wall doesn't neatly correlate to EITHER the horizontal furring strip OR the conduit.

If it weren't for the neighbor's testimonials that the area has never flooded, and the likelihood that the mold is alive (how can you even TELL whether it's "live" mold or "long dead" mold?), I'd swear to god it looks like the living room was BRIEFLY under ~10 inches of water at some point between 1982 (when it was built) and the late 90s/early 2000s (when a new wall that shows no evidence of such damage was built). In fact, I think I *am* going to pay the homeowners' association's site manager, and city hall, a visit tomorrow to try and get an official answer about whether the area has ever flooded (even briefly, even if due to storm drain failure). The one person I *can't* call is my insurance agent... apparently, if I call and ask, it'll appear on my record forever as an opened-but-abandoned claim... nevertheless visible to anyone who might be interested in buying my house in the future, or anyone giving me a future insurance quote.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I'm not a mold expert, but I do think you should at least know what type of mold your dealing with before you continue. I'm guessing your probably not wearing the correct filter mask and if it is stachybotrys (which is black in color) it's pretty serious business.

Here in Las Vegas, they would seal that room off with plastic, along with any ventillation entry/exits immediately upon its discovery.

Not trying to alarm you, but you just want to know what exactly your dealing with here.

 

[Steve]

You've received some pretty good advice so far. I don't want to be an alarmist, but black mold in enough quantity can actually be deadly, forgetting health issues like you are seeing with your cat. I strongly believe that just a small section from a known source is something perhaps you can address yourself, but something seemingly as pervasive as what you have should be addressed by a professional. They are equipped with the proper tools and training to identify sources as well as bad areas.

The very first thing to mold control is finding the source and fixing it, thats CRUCIAL. As long as you still have moisture entering, the problem will either come back or continue. Once you find and correct the source then you need to do a through remediation. These things are not cheap, but neither is ill health. The sources could be anything - flood, wall leaks, roof leak, busted pipes, etc, etc. Pros have I think its an infrared gun of some sort they can point all over the place and it detects moisture. It's probably a good idea to get the testing after a good heavy rainfall in case that is the source. Or it could be like you said, an old problem that was since fixed, but never remediated. In any case, have every nook and cranny in that place checked, it could be hiding anywhere.

As for remediation, there are many strategies. Even if you wind up replacing a boatload of drywall, mold can be on the foam or furring strips. Those things will be impractical to replace. Different remediation companies use different things, but if you have someone wanting to just come in and spray bleach - THROW THEM OUT. The best approach is to kill/remove all remaining mold, then you want to encapsulate it to prevent it from growing back. Mold spores can be tough, so if you just do a quick spray and wipedown there would be a good change you still have live spores which can then go and multiply. You want to do a good spray and scrub to allow the remover to penetrate the spore, then encapsulate. Take a look at this website. I had a roof leak that ruined some drywall and left behind some rot and mold. It was very localized so I had the roofer apply Molderizer and scrub, then Safe Shield. I will do the same in the interior. I have a special needs daughter so I wanted a safe non toxic formula and I think the linked is good stuff. Even several pro remediation companies use it.

In any case, this is not like diy'ing some automated lights, you really need to get some help and thoroughly get that problem cleaned up. If the mold has actually made its way all the way thru the drywall where I saw it, its serious.

 

[Steve]

Looking at those latest pictures, it looks like either 123 said and its coming in the base of the wall, or despite what your neighbor said, it very well could have been an old flood. If may bot be from weather that your neighbor would know, but it could have been an internal flood from a broken pipe or something. Is that room anywhere near a kitchen or bath plumbing? I'm starting to think it may have started on the outside of the wall and made its way to the inside (against foam). Either way, thats serious stuff. You would be doing your family a disservice if you did not have a good certified mold tester in there right away.

 

[miamicanes]

If anyone happens to know... how many inches of floodwater would be necessary to produce a ~11-inch high stain on drywall and/or wallpaper backing? Would it literally take 11 inches of floodwater, or would as little as 3 or 4 inches do the trick as water wicked its way up?

I'm increasingly suspecting that it might just be damage from a past flood. From what I found on Google over the past hour or so, Hurricane Irene (1999) DID cause extensive (but brief) flooding throughout my area (Pembroke Pines) due to storm drain failure after dropping ~14-18 inches of rain on the area. I took a good, hard look at the cabinets in the kitchen and downstairs bathroom. The KITCHEN cabinets all had obvious particleboard swelling visible on their bases... but didn't seem to show any obvious, consistent damage at or above the bottoms of the cabinets themselves. HOWEVER, the BATHROOM was another story... the cabinet base showed obvious swelling. So did the doors... to a point almost EXACTLY 10 inches above the floor. Inside the cabinet was another surprise... ITS bottom looked like someone bought a piece of particleboard at some point over the past 3-5 years and cut it to replace the original one.

I'm still trying to figure out how the living room and bathroom could have had ~10-11 inches of flooding, but the kitchen only 2 or 3 inches. Even if the owner sandbagged the hallway, the water would have seeped right through the non-loadbearing wall between the kitchen and presumably-flooded adjacent room, right? Or would the drywall have swollen a bit, and possibly become sufficiently watertight to hold back the majority of water for a few hours... long enough for the floodwaters to subside? Keep in mind that if there WAS flooding, it would have been due to ponding from storm drain failure, not alluvial wave action. Apparently, the difference in outcomes between the two is pretty dramatic (at least when you're talking about concrete homes on slab foundations that won't float away)... alluvial wave action will just rip out the doors and cause massive interior damage, while the other just kind of turns the first floor into a temporary adhoc wading pool.

 

[personalt]

The drywall will have some wicking effect and suck the water up a little. Take a peice that you ripped down and cut a 1" wide by 10" high strip. stick it in cut of water 3" high for a few hours and see what happens.

What about this to prove flood as problem, open up a wall on the inside of the house somewhere. If you have mold on an inside wall I would trace it to flooding.

That being said. cutting the bottom 10" of drywall all the way around a house sucks but it isnt the end of the world. My friend did something similar in house where it flooded a few inches all the way around..

If anyone happens to know... how many inches of floodwater would be necessary to produce a ~11-inch high stain on drywall and/or wallpaper backing? Would it literally take 11 inches of floodwater, or would as little as 3 or 4 inches do the trick as water wicked its way up?

I'm increasingly suspecting that it might just be damage from a past flood. From what I found on Google over the past hour or so, Hurricane Irene (1999) DID cause extensive (but brief) flooding throughout my area (Pembroke Pines) due to storm drain failure after dropping ~14-18 inches of rain on the area. I took a good, hard look at the cabinets in the kitchen and downstairs bathroom. The KITCHEN cabinets all had obvious particleboard swelling visible on their bases... but didn't seem to show any obvious, consistent damage at or above the bottoms of the cabinets themselves. HOWEVER, the BATHROOM was another story... the cabinet base showed obvious swelling. So did the doors... to a point almost EXACTLY 10 inches above the floor. Inside the cabinet was another surprise... ITS bottom looked like someone bought a piece of particleboard at some point over the past 3-5 years and cut it to replace the original one.

I'm still trying to figure out how the living room and bathroom could have had ~10-11 inches of flooding, but the kitchen only 2 or 3 inches. Even if the owner sandbagged the hallway, the water would have seeped right through the non-loadbearing wall between the kitchen and presumably-flooded adjacent room, right? Or would the drywall have swollen a bit, and possibly become sufficiently watertight to hold back the majority of water for a few hours... long enough for the floodwaters to subside? Keep in mind that if there WAS flooding, it would have been due to ponding from storm drain failure, not alluvial wave action. Apparently, the difference in outcomes between the two is pretty dramatic (at least when you're talking about concrete homes on slab foundations that won't float away)... alluvial wave action will just rip out the doors and cause massive interior damage, while the other just kind of turns the first floor into a temporary adhoc wading pool.

 

[BrettS]

Unfortunately I can't help much with the issue at hand, but I do seem to recall from one of your previous posts that you bought this home fairly recently. If that's the case, you may want to consult an attorney to see if you have any options here.

Like someone else suggested, you may be able to go after your inspector if you had one. Also, I don't know about the laws in FL, but I know that when we sold our home in NY we were required to fill out a disclosure form for the buyers and one of the items listed in the form was water damage. In NY, at least, not being honest on the form would open us up to a law suit from the buyers if they discovered a problem like this after the sale.

You may have an expensive project at hand here, but it's definitely worth doing right the first time and as some others have suggested I would at least get a few quotes from a mold remediation company to see what you're up against. It would be terribly to try to save a little money by doing it yourself only to discover a few months later that you missed something and you would have to redo it all. Plus, it seems likely that you may be able to recover some or all of that money from the inspector or previous owners.

Good luck in any case,
Brett

 

[BrettS]

I did a quick search and came across this site...

http://www.mylakelandrealtor.com/Seller_Di..._statement.html

According to this guy a disclosure is required in FL and apparently it even has stricter laws than many states.

HTH,
Brett

 

[miamicanes]

Well, right now my main plan is to try and conclusively settle once and for all whether or not my block has ever flooded. If it HAS, as far as I'm concerned that settles the matter right there... I'll remove the lower drywall everywhere on the first floor (eventually, as I get around to remodeling or repainting the rooms), paint the furring strips and insulation with Fiberlock Aftershock (antifungal coating with residual action), replace the drywall with GP's paper-free drywall (possibly painting the front and back with Aftershock before hanging it, just to be extra safe), prime it with Kilz, paint, and feel satisfied that the room is done. If the area really HAS never flooded, well... then I'll just have to get someone to come out and figure out where the moisture the mold would need to grow is coming from so I can fix it first, then do everything I already mentioned.

Personally, I'm suspicious of ANY scenario where the word "remediation" gets (ab)used so freely, because it usually ends up describing scenarios where people are induced to spare no expense and go completely overboard trying to neutralize even the tiniest possible hazard for the gratification of lawyers and bureaucrats. It's bad, but it's not plutonium. When I was little, I spent YEARS playing in my grandmother's basement, which had entire sections (including the cavelike "food cellar" under the front porch that was always cold, damp, and where my brother and I liked to play "hide 'n seek") that were CRUSTED with black, gooey mold, and always smelled like a dank, musty cave. Ditto, for the nastiest nooks in my parents' OWN basement, and the area under the tiled shower floor that I used for years before it was ripped up by my parents during a remodeling project (exposing its yucky blackness for all to see).

 

[CollinR]

First thing I would do is spray it with a dilluted bleach / water mix.
I have never had a real mold problem but I have seen it and have seen the effects bleach/water from a mister bottle has on it.

The problem with all the remediation places is if just one of them says you do have a problem you must forever disclose it on that form. This is totally regaurdless of if in fact it is mold in the first place. Now you "know" and now it's been documented and probably published in some statistic somewhere.

Right now all you know is there is some crap in your wall, you don't really know anything. Just because bleach bleaches it doesn't mean it's obviously mold, much less a theatening type of mold.

Why can't someone else be the jerk just once???

The attitude about your younger years however is also not good, some types of mold are bad news.

 

[Steve]

I guess you're not married cause I think you'd take it more seriously if you were Some people are more 'tolerant' than others but it sounds like your pet is being affected anyway. It does sound like you had a flood, but like I said, it could have just been a burst pipe inside - maybe even in that bathroom where the damage was worst. Your concrete slab is not level, the water will easily spread out to many rooms and seek low spots. While bleach can be effective, it is pretty nasty to use alot indoors, I would certainly look at Molderizer first. If you are sure there is no other source then sure, you can you the 'fixing' yourself if you're so inclined. Just do yourself a favor and have your family stay elsewhere and wear a good respirator. When mold spores are disturbed and stirred up they can go airborne and spread. You are like 30 minutes from me, so the rain today from Hanna and what we get from Ike will be good tests to see if you have any leaks from the outside...

 

[123]

In addition to my earlier suggestion about contacting your home-inspector, it might also be time to check your home insurance policy. You may be covered for this calamity. I don't use the word 'calamity' lightly; the extent of the damage appears to have exceeded the bounds of normal, DIY home-reno work.

 

[Photon]

Any chance you might sell the place some day? What info are you willing to lie about when YOU fill out a disclosure form? You obviously think there is mold in the structure. You even posted it on the Internet, where your buyer's lawyer can find it many years from now. You need to have a documented visit from a legitimate mold abatement outfit including a signed statement that it is not hazardous, or you need to stock up on liability insurance when you sell the place. Of course, it's tough to get any kind of insurance that covers mold.

When you discover how much it is going to cost to have a pro fix this and certify it is fixed, then you may have to decided between throwing money at automation toys vs. the structure of your home. Just keep in mind that the next occupant will discover the problem if you don't take care of it. When HE discovers how much it costs to make good, then YOU will wish you had done this correctly.

1. Get a couple estimates from licensed professionals. Be sure to ask what happens if you pay them the big bucks to fix your wall and the neighbors do not fix the same thing in their walls. (I believe you are in a multi-unit building.) Will they still guarantee their work?
2. Gather up your legal documents from your house purchase and visit a lawyer.
3. Document everything you do with regard to this unfortunate discovery and your subsequent actions so when you get sued later you can prove you did all the right things. And especially so you can prove you never tried to hide it.

I have to pass your story on to my daughter. She keeps asking why she shouldn't buy a condo instead of renting.

Good luck!

 

[personalt]

99% of all insurance companies put in mold exclusions after katrina. And cerainly as you mentioned above don't call your insurnace company and ask about mold coverage.... if you do they will most likely just drop you.

In addition to my earlier suggestion about contacting your home-inspector, it might also be time to check your home insurance policy. You may be covered for this calamity. I don't use the word 'calamity' lightly; the extent of the damage appears to have exceeded the bounds of normal, DIY home-reno work.

 

[personalt]

This logic is all well and good until you realize that no one will buy a house with a mold disclosure even if you have tons of paperwork showing the great job you did removing it. They will buy the house next door that might still have the mold over yours.

I think some people are overqualifyig the professionals. I am a landlord who has built a few buildings and have a small construction crew. I have had landlord friends that use professional mold remediators in cases where they had mold issue from flooding. The crew was basicly undocumented workers with a plastic suit you can get for $40 and a $50 mask. And they charged almost $100 a hour a guy for work that if it was regular demo(no suit) would have cost $15 an hour a guy.

The problem is mold is such a scary word you get bent over at every turn.

I still go with the plan that you remove the source of the mold, remove the drywall as far up as the water mark. Then you spray the lumber with a bleach solution and kiltz it. If you kiltz it, that is more then most of the remediation companies would do.

This might just be me but I would run like hell from any house that had a mold disclosure with paperwork saying it was cleaned up.

Now of course you want to do everything right but there is no magic here, get a mask with the best filter pack money can buy and remove all the bad drywall. I would try to score and snap with a utiltiy knife rather then take rougher methods to get the drywall down but this isnt rocket science.

Any chance you might sell the place some day? What info are you willing to lie about when YOU fill out a disclosure form? You obviously think there is mold in the structure. You even posted it on the Internet, where your buyer's lawyer can find it many years from now. You need to have a documented visit from a legitimate mold abatement outfit including a signed statement that it is not hazardous, or you need to stock up on liability insurance when you sell the place. Of course, it's tough to get any kind of insurance that covers mold.

When you discover how much it is going to cost to have a pro fix this and certify it is fixed, then you may have to decided between throwing money at automation toys vs. the structure of your home. Just keep in mind that the next occupant will discover the problem if you don't take care of it. When HE discovers how much it costs to make good, then YOU will wish you had done this correctly.

1. Get a couple estimates from licensed professionals. Be sure to ask what happens if you pay them the big bucks to fix your wall and the neighbors do not fix the same thing in their walls. (I believe you are in a multi-unit building.) Will they still guarantee their work?
2. Gather up your legal documents from your house purchase and visit a lawyer.
3. Document everything you do with regard to this unfortunate discovery and your subsequent actions so when you get sued later you can prove you did all the right things. And especially so you can prove you never tried to hide it.

I have to pass your story on to my daughter. She keeps asking why she shouldn't buy a condo instead of renting.

Good luck!