Uncooperative Builder...

[drozwood90]

OK, the situation is:
I have a new home being built. The builder told me that I was able to make changes for 2 weeks. After that, it would be a $250 charge per change.

So, within 2 days, I came up with all my changes. They took their sweet time approving things. 3+ weeks later they approved most things.

However, there were 2 things that did NOT get any attention, and I think they thought I would forget about it. On that second day, I asked to contact the electrician and plumber regarding how they were going to run the plumbing and how they were going to run the electrical. I was told "to code"....which bothers me as "to code" a few years ago allowed for aluminum wiring in the house! Anywhoo...as I had asked to speak to them, and this was never addressed, until AFTER my 2 week period, I think the builder is "pissed" and just does not want to make any more changes, especially now that they can not get their $250!

The reason:
After speaking to the plumber, I asked for a separate drop to go to the washer/dryer area up on the second floor (we moved the washer and dryer upstairs), instead of him taping into the bathroom pipes that are right next to it. The next item, was to make certain that the feeder lines are all 3/4". Even the lines coming out of the hot water tank. The plumber indicated to me that the 3/4" line was about a $10 change. The extra drop wouldn't be more then $500. OK, even if the builder 2x the charges, I'm still happy with that price. They came back with $3100!!! My guess is, they 10x the price!

The electrician told me that he knows what I wanted, and he went through line item by line item, and gave the builder a new quote. The builder came back with $7100! WHAT? I figured on $2k-3k. As there would be maybe 3x the copper wire, and effort to pull the wire. The best part was, on BOTH of these quotes, the builder would not give me a breakdown on HOW the price got there. They said, they never got a breakdown...even though the electrician told me that they went through everything line item by line item.

The question:
The plumbing:
Was a nice to have. If they do not want to do thats fine.

The electrical:
They are going to put 12 plugs per breaker. This means in my new 40 breaker panel (which I paid extra for), I am going to get 16 breakers.

So, this means, all the bedroom plugs will all be tied together. The kitchen will have two stripes of plugs in it, instead of every other plug being a different circuit. That is, you have 2 walls
Their way:
wall one, has circuit A then A, wall two has circuit B then B.
My way:
wall one, has circuit A then B, wall two has circuit B then A.

Each bedroom should be on it's own circuit. So, what I have asked them to do, is loop the wires. For each plug in the kitchen, tie them together in the basement. For each other room, loop them together into the attic, or through the floor into the basement (two floor home).

If they will not do this. What are my options?

I think I should drag wires on the weekend when they are not there (they told me I can't work on the house during the build)? If I do, how do I make sure it will pass inspection? If I do not touch ANY of their wiring, I don't think they can complain. However, Can I drag a wire, leave a service loop and put it in the junction box and just tape the end. Leave it dead? Should I try to drag it all the way to my panel? Should I just leave it going to a junction box in the attic/basement?

Any other suggestions?

--Dan

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Hi Dan;

Is this a track home or a custom build? Did you hire your own "general" contractor or is this part of a larger community of homes?

As far as the bedrooms being on one circuit, I thought (prefacing this with "I'm not an electrician and may be wrong) they HAD to be as the new code calls for that (AND this one run as to be protected via an ARC FLASH circuit breaker).

As far as your kitchen runs, I guess I don't see the advantage either way, unless it's some sort of load balance problem.

What I would do is try to get your bedrooms and lighting on one phase (and your outlets on another). This is easy for them to do as it's just a selection of what breaker gets wired to what run inside the panel.

Building a house is one of the toughest things one can do! I went through this with my friend who did a custom build.

 

[politics123]

I built a house like that in NoVA, under the same rules. "To code" essentially means: "to the lowest standard possible that won't kill you."

You already talked to the electrician and plumber? So, in my opinion, you already have the two most important phone numbers to resolve this: the plumber and the electrician. I'm sure that they can wire it and plumb it however they need to to comply with code. Are you sure you can't convince them (achem, achem) that they should take some short-cuts that happen to comply with your request? Offer to pay the subs on the side for the additional work.

You can't drag a dead wire... that is definitely NOT up to code.

However, in my case, the builder allowed me to do whatever low-voltage wiring work was necessary. This turned out to be a great work-around. True, I wired cable and internet everywhere. I then thought, "gee, I need some low-voltage conduit." So, i ran conduit. Funny thing about conduit, it can come in any shape and size and material. For example, I had wanted to pre-plumb the house for solar hot-water (two 3/4" copper tubes from the basement to the attic). I was given a ridiculous estimate for it. So, I ran 3/4" K-copper "low voltage conduit" from the basement to the attic.

Also, note that 12-volt wiring distribution is considered "low voltage" -- why not install a low-voltage power distribution network. Funny thing about this: 4 conductor 12 gauge copper wiring in romex form that was planned for 12-volt can always be repurposed :angry:

 

[drozwood90]

Hi Dan;

Is this a track home or a custom build?

I am not sure what you mean by track or custom. They brought the lumber in

Did you hire your own "general" contractor or is this part of a larger community of homes?

Part of a larger community...

As far as the bedrooms being on one circuit, I thought (prefacing this with "I'm not an electrician and may be wrong) they HAD to be as the new code calls for that (AND this one run as to be protected via an ARC FLASH circuit breaker).

They must be arc faulted...but as long as all the bedrooms are on the same arc fault, it's legal. The lights are on their own breaker (all tied together).

As far as your kitchen runs, I guess I don't see the advantage either way, unless it's some sort of load balance problem.

Just making certain that all the appliances are not on the same circuit (George Forman, Toaster Oven, Skillet...there are times we use all three at once).

What I would do is try to get your bedrooms and lighting on one phase (and your outlets on another). This is easy for them to do as it's just a selection of what breaker gets wired to what run inside the panel.

Why would you do this? I had a great layout for the panel. I used 38 of the 40 circuits for my house. But, they wanted $7100 for that!! That is, they just do not want to do it. Which is why I want to see what I can do about getting loops or whatever in order to get my own circuits added in later on.

Building a house is one of the toughest things one can do! I went through this with my friend who did a custom build.

Yes, you are right. It was supposed to be easy...but I guess it's tougher at first, but easier in the long run then re-building an old house (which is what I did last time when I was in Utica).

--Dan

 

[drozwood90]

I built a house like that in NoVA, under the same rules. "To code" essentially means: "to the lowest standard possible that won't kill you."

You already talked to the electrician and plumber? So, in my opinion, you already have the two most important phone numbers to resolve this: the plumber and the electrician. I'm sure that they can wire it and plumb it however they need to to comply with code. Are you sure you can't convince them (achem, achem) that they should take some short-cuts that happen to comply with your request? Offer to pay the subs on the side for the additional work.

You can't drag a dead wire... that is definitely NOT up to code.

However, in my case, the builder allowed me to do whatever low-voltage wiring work was necessary. This turned out to be a great work-around. True, I wired cable and internet everywhere. I then thought, "gee, I need some low-voltage conduit." So, i ran conduit. Funny thing about conduit, it can come in any shape and size and material. For example, I had wanted to pre-plumb the house for solar hot-water (two 3/4" copper tubes from the basement to the attic). I was given a ridiculous estimate for it. So, I ran 3/4" K-copper "low voltage conduit" from the basement to the attic.

Also, note that 12-volt wiring distribution is considered "low voltage" -- why not install a low-voltage power distribution network. Funny thing about this: 4 conductor 12 gauge copper wiring in romex form that was planned for 12-volt can always be repurposed :angry:

Well, I think I have already tried that <cough cough> method. I will try again when I see them on site...however, on site is hard as the project manager keeps butting in. I suppose I'll call the plumber back to see what he wants to do about this...I'm not certain I can convince the electrician to do anything (which is the most important guy I need on board).

As Dan pointed out...it is part of a larger community...they do not want to get in trouble for doing work on the site, for fear of loosing the contracts for the next bunch of houses in the community.

They told me "I" could not come and do work there as their insurance does not cover me. I wonder what they would say about me paying a separate sub on the side to "fix" the wire before the inspector sees it.

I would defiantly do what you suggested about the LV wire...but they told me that I had to use their guy for and LV wire I wanted.

Good ideas, keep them coming!

--Dan

 

[Sacedog]

This has got to be a track home, or in a planned community, right? If so, the builder is just being smart when he is not allowing you to work on the house during the build. Since you don't own the house yet, the builder is liable for any injuries that might occur on the premises. It sucks, but that is the status quo. I think your cheapest bet would be to have conduit installed between the basement and attic, unless it is a slab foundation...then you might have a tough time doing wiring after the house has been built.

I have been visiting our new house on a daily basis, and make tons of minor changes in the field. Anything major requires a change order, but the charge is for additional materials and labor only...no additional "change order" fee.

If this is a custom home, I would have a "come to Jesus" meeting with your builder. No custom home builder should be giving you the crap that you are getting. Also, if you do own the property, you should be able to do whatever work you want to on the house.

 

[Ranger Digital]

Dan, let me put this in its simplest form YOU ARE GETTING FUGGED!!

As a builder, I KNOW how they work and I despise most of them. ANY chance they get for "change orders" they usually promote because they know they can make 5 times their normal margin even on a contract. The contract will usually state the price up front or the margin, 10-20%. However RARELY does a contract ever state that same margin or markup on change orders, usually wont state the price at all on change orders. Typcially "cost plus" but no plus actually indicated as far as amount. They do this on purpose and home most dont catch it thus leaving it open to charge you whatever they want. And even if it does say cost plus 15%, the builder will fake the real cost. SO many crooks! Of course, we are not that way thus the reputation we have.

123 is right, YOU have contacts! That means YOU have the power, not the builder. While I would want to tell the builder to go hang himself off the highest rafter in the house and record it so his family could watch it later, that would not get my house done. You need to go DIRECTLY TO THE SUBS, screw the builder, and cut a deal with the subs. Let the builder take you to court if he wants, he wont becuase it will show that he LIED to you and was screwing you up the wazoo. You can usually get the subs to pretty much do whatever you want and at mnimal cost. BUT offer to pay the RIGHT price to them and dont try to short change them. This is if its a custom home (one of a kind, not a cookie cutter track home that is like five others in the neighborhood, not saying those arent nice homes too!). If its a "tract" home (usually same builder for all home in community and a limited number of house designs/plans, non-custom) you may have more difficulty in dealing with the subs. It just depends on your skills, LOL. Pizza and drinks usually warms up a crew to do whatever you want. :angry:

So, talk to the subs. Tell them what you want. You already know the cost and just tell them to do it. Read your contract too. The builder may already be in violtion of it already but not likely. YOu may violate the contract by dealing with subs as well but the builder will NOT sue you over it if he knows he will get busted in a big fat lie, be proven a thief and lose credibililty in the community.

GET WHAT YOU WANT, and smack the builder, hard. Right in the face. The builder deserves NOTHING for NOT helping you. He should be ashamed of himself. May I smack him for you?

PS. Go talk to the subs TODAY. When your builder tries to bill you his outrageous amount, show him the REAL cost, that you paid it and remind him that dont only did he do NOTHING to help you but actually tried to screw you! Also reimind him how easy it would be to get the word out about this "customer service"

edit: I see you have posted while I was typing this about already talking to subs again. KEEP talking to them. You CAN win this. As far as LV and them not letting you pull your own wire is SILLY. Do it anyway? LOL. Fight them. Go on sundays? LOL

 

[Spanky]

One item to check on in your electrical wiring is to make sure you have neutrals at all the light switches. This enables you to use the home automation light switches in the future. Many houses have the hot side stubbed from the light fixture down to the switch with no neutral. In this case there is no power for the HA switches to operate.

 

[GraysonPeddie]

Nice post, Ranger Digital!

That's a good lesson for me to learn when this happens...

 

[drozwood90]

One item to check on in your electrical wiring is to make sure you have neutrals at all the light switches. This enables you to use the home automation light switches in the future. Many houses have the hot side stubbed from the light fixture down to the switch with no neutral. In this case there is no power for the HA switches to operate.

Spanky, good idea! I had that as one of the "first day" items.

$220 change for that. ok, expensive, but within reason.

That's why I MUST assume they want me to STOP asking for things...hence the $7100 for the other changes...and $3100 for plumbing. I mean, come on...they are adding TWO stinking pipes where they are already running lines...ESP. when the plumber told me it shouldn't be that much (that is, from him I am thinking it should have been a $1K addition).

--Dan

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Hey Dan;

I'm going to tell you my two recent (within the past few years) experience I had with both a "track home" and a "custom build". I purchased the track home in an established community where I had a selection of three models to choose from. I selected the lot, was presented with a list of options, and very little customized capabilities were available. You COULD NOT work on your own home (liability reasons) nor have any sub contractors other than those hired by the builder. You could also not speak with the sub contractors directly.

I guess it's all a product and demand era as people here (at the time) were actually waiting in their cars overnight when the first phase of this development was released (luckily this didn't happen in the second phase where I got in, but the homes were scarfed up quickly). So their attitude was "please leave as your holding people up who will purchase this home".

Anyway, my experience with this track home was you could not, would not, can not, make any custom changes no matter how much pizza and drinks you brought on site. :angry: We even had to pay for our options up front (with cold hard cash) and couldn't even finance them with the loan. If you later decide you don't want the home, those costs were not refundable.

With my friend's house, he purchased a lot, did his own home design, then hired his own general contractor to do the build. He had a lot more freedom and we were able to do the low voltage wiring ourselves. He could also speak with the sub contractors as they came on site.

So, as this seems to be the former, I don't think you have many options other than wave whatever contract you had and go to the track home's management and deal with the situation that way. I'm betting that the subs will not have anything to do with you as they will risk loosing their jobs with the track homes business if they did. Now grant it, I'm not in your area, but this is how it worked here.

As far as my other questions, I was thinking if you had all the lighting on one phase, that would help any lighting automation that used power line technology in the future (I would even go as far as installing in-line blocks for the fluorescent lighting). Most signal sucks/noise generating devices would be plugged into outlets, which would be on the other phase. If you were worried about outlets poping, just put them on other breakers that are on that same phase. Maybe our electrician experts could comment on this further.

Best of luck to you!

BSR

 

[drozwood90]

Nice post, Ranger Digital!

That's a good lesson for me to learn when this happens...

Just spoke with my Lawyer. He said, he doesn't think I'll be able to do anything as they are interested in the long term goal of the community. There is nothing in my paperwork (I don't have it handy here at work), that states how they come up with any numbers. Since they will not give me a breakdown on HOW they came up with the $7100, he thinks they are being crooked about it, but there's nothing that I can do, as I can't prove they are gouging.

However, suggested I sit down with them and try to see if they can bend a little...but doubts they will do anything for me, as I am not their client. The builder is (as was stated before, I don't own the property/house at this point...the builder does...so, I have no legal rights to do anything in there that the Builder does not want to do at this point).

Kinda sucks...I wish I had known this before...but they kept saying, "you can take care of that when you talk to the electrician"

...

..
.

--Dan

 

[Steve]

While I appreciate Ranger's enthusiasm, I kinda had the same experience as BSR. Now this was back in 1992. It was pretty much a master planned community that sounds similar to yours. Yes, the builder would allow certain changes and yes, they tried to gouge. I really don't think you have any legal recourse and the best option is to sweet talk the builder which won't likely get you far. They typically don't like to deviate from their plans and gouge you to discourage big changes. At the time I was not big into HA and did not even think alot about these things. Now, some of it comes down to the site foreman. Sometimes they are a little more lenient than the builder in his office. For example I did want to run speaker wire and he told me he would look the other way, do it when they are not there, BUT if it in any way raised flags or questions with an inspection, etc, that it would be ripped out at my expense and also of course no guarantees that any or all of it would be there in completed home. So I did it after insulation and hit it pretty well and all seemed ok. But, there is a risk if you are caught since technically and legally you are not supposed to be on the premises until closing. So, I would probably first try to talk to the builder again and see if he is reasonable (doubt it), then I would feel out the site foreman and see what you can maybe do, but I'm not sure I would try to go to subs directly. Unfortunately those are the pains of not doing a custom home where you call the shots but also comes with its whole other set of issues. If it is in wall stuff that you feel strongly about and think it will have a big impact in your life in that house and its next to impossible to do later, consider negotiating best price with builder and sucking it up since you will always be frustrated otherwise. If you have an attic, etc and its stuff you can do later (you can usually always have a good electrician come in later and add circuits, breakers, etc) then consider just doing stuff later - granted not as neat but will have same end result and probably alot less expensive. Conduit, as mentioned could be a great compromise to some things since you should get it failrly cheap and will make running stuff later easier. Good luck...

 

[drozwood90]

Well, I spoke with an Electrical Contractor Friend of mine.

Apparently, so long as the wire starts in a box and ends in a box, it doesn't have to be live.

His suggestion was, pull my own, but only where I need. As in, pull 1 box for each bed room. If two bedrooms share, and the jump point is an inside wall, don't bother pulling a new wire now. However, if the jump is an outside wall, pull a new wire, end in a box with a blank plate, say 4"-6" away from the builder's box. That distance is far enough that they will put the insulation around it, yet close enough that working an 8" piece of wire through it won't be hard and has minimal chance of screwing it up (bunching, etc.). Do this over the box that they install that is on the outside wall which they are using to tie two rooms together.

Then, my unconnected wire can go from my box with a blank cover plate (4"-6" above their box), to a box in the basement that doesn't go anywhere. This provides the inspector with the ability to say AOK, as it goes from a BOX to a BOX, it's not dangling, but it also does not have power...which is not his concern. Thus, I would only need to disconnect the wire that "jumpers" the two rooms together. Cut it off on BOTH sides and push it back into the wall (to prevent ripping the insulation if it COULD be pulled out...unless I feel frisky... Finally, I can connect this wire to my mains to provide power to that circuit. I SHOULD only need to do this on the "back" end rooms. The rooms at the end of the chain, as the first room can continue to use the existing wire pull.

I feel a HELL of a lot better about this.

As everyone said, there's not much I can do. I don't MIND doing work later on. I just want to have a hook to be able to do it later. None of this ripping apart walls. Fishing...esp. through empty walls is not an issue.

Thanks all!

I'm still open for more suggestions, if anyone has any.

--Dan

 

[Event5]

Just a thought.... If any of the work you do raises a red flag with the inspector and the electrical contractor doesn't know what it is, I could cause the contractor to fail an inspection.

Dave