Uncooperative Builder...

[Photon]

I had the (apparently) unusual situation of an honest, friendly builder and difficult subs. The builder sent me to a couple of his other works in progress where I observed what I considered unacceptable low voltage wiring. I specified in my contract that there were to be empty conduits from empty boxes extending at least a foot into the basement, and I annotated the floor plan with the locations, at least one per room in exterior walls. I got this in the contract in lieu of the low voltage wiring he normally includes for cable TV and phone at no change in my cost. I have added wiring to these and placed several low voltage outlets on interior walls.

No mater how you approach attaining your goals, I highly recommend photographing every wall before the drywall goes up. Having an album full of such shots of the skeleton has been a huge aid in placing additional wiring.

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

Pull strings can also be your friend if you can get them in.....

 

[drozwood90]

Just a thought.... If any of the work you do raises a red flag with the inspector and the electrical contractor doesn't know what it is, I could cause the contractor to fail an inspection.

Dave

Very true. That's why I am going to try to make certain that I have my Electrical Contractor Friend there to help make certain everything is AOK.

--Dan

 

[drozwood90]

Pull strings can also be your friend if you can get them in.....

The only issue with that, is the insulation.

my concern is pulling a wire through an outside wall, might mar up the insulation.

That is, unless it's pulled along the insulation next to the stud...

Hmm...Martin, good idea...

At least that would help minimize any problems with insulation getting ruined, by guiding the wires (hopefully straightened out as it unrolls).

--Dan

 

[brotsten]

Pull strings can also be your friend if you can get them in.....

The only issue with that, is the insulation.

my concern is pulling a wire through an outside wall, might mar up the insulation.

That is, unless it's pulled along the insulation next to the stud...

Hmm...Martin, good idea...

At least that would help minimize any problems with insulation getting ruined, by guiding the wires (hopefully straightened out as it unrolls).

--Dan

The pull strings go inside the conduit.

Brian

 

[Ranger Digital]

Enthusiastic or not, good or bad, right or wrong, the builder is screwing you, period. This is not about having kahunas, its about having hair on the kahunas, lol. Do what you need to do. Run your own wires. Whats the builder doing to do? SUE? NO WAY. Not a chance.

Here is how their "insurance" proclomations work. "you cant do any work because my insurance wont cover it". What that means is "i have the cheapest insurance a builder can have that requires my subs to have their own insurance". Which is not bad nor uncommon. My own builders insurance is just that. I am covered for anything I do and my subs work is covered by THEIR insurance. No problem. Common like I said. Here is my issue with staking claim to THAT insurance excuse. SO WHAT? What problem can you cause? Are you going to burn the house down before its in your name by running an LV wire? OH MY GOD that SPEAKER wire might cause someone to hang themselves and choke OH MY! All you are hearing is EXCUSES on why the builder cant rape you. You can lube up and take it or you can do what you need to do. I still say FIGHT IT. Again, WHAT insurance claim could happen from you running LV wires???

Look at everything in life like this: whats the worst that can happen and can I accept that? While I am not the curator of that philosphy, I adhere to it (fan or not of Ross Perot, we can all learn from his thought process, which is the forethought). SO whats the worst that can happen? builder sues you? NO, never then he would prove a crook. Inspection not passed? Sure that can happen if you dont it right of course. Pizz off the builder? well that is likely but so what.

The builder has given you his excuse for ONE reason and one reason only. PROFIT. To that I say: alternative measures. Its all about the hair baby.

 

[Sacedog]

What problem can you cause? Are you going to burn the house down before its in your name by running an LV wire?

I agree with you, the builder is bring a prick. However, from a "building a house" standpoint, how about these scenarios (all assuming that this is an unexperienced homeowner coming in to do their own wiring):

- Homeowner drills through one of the "orange" beams. These are typically glue lam or ply lam beams that are engenieered. Drilling through one of these babies will fail your inspection in a heartbeat, and cause the builder to have to replace the beam (not an easy task if all of the framing, HVAC, plumbing, and electrical has been completed).
- Homeowner cuts a hole through engineered sheer wall (unlikely, but you never know). Much easier to fix than the first scenario.
- Homeowner drills through a fire-rated partition. Once again, this would fail your inspection, however, this one is pretty easy to fix (install fire break conduit, run wire through, and fill with fire caulk).

These are all unlikely scenarios, but all possible for someone running LV wire, who is not familiar with the "rules" of what you can and can't cut or drill through.

The other thing that comes to mind is that if there is a problem with the house in thr future, from the sounds of this bulder, they would not hesitate to tell you that you, mr. homeowner, caused the problem when you ran those wires.

Yes, yes, I know I am a pesimist! I am just throwing out some thoughts though.

 

[Ranger Digital]

Sace, but good thoughts they are!

Ok, "homeowner you can run your own wire but you cant drill". LOL

 

[pete]

and, not for nothing, if you do some 'midnight alterations' what's to prevent the 'Uncooperative Builder' from ripping out the work you do, and then charging you for the labor . . he owns the house/property . .

If this is 'typical' construction, with accessible attic and basement, I would install a few fat conduits from attic to basement (seperate runs for HV/LV, in a couple of spots) . . and maybe a few empty boxes, with empty conduit stubbed up/down into the attic/basement, for the locations on exterior where you need them. . ie: do as little as possible now in cost and effort, but allow you to accomplish your desired result in the end . .

and empty boxes/conduits (may need covers/caps) should cause little concern at inspection time . .

you could try to get the best price for these options from the builder, but I have to side w/ Ranger Digital here, I would do it myself, even as far as knocking it out on the night before inspection if I could (fargh the builder) . .

 

[Ranger Digital]

pete, more good points.

The builder may or may not own the house/property, ESPECIALLY if its a custom home. Most of the time the bank owns it and the construction loan is in the BUYERS name. At least thats the way it is here in my parts. Most can tell the builder to get "off my property" even though its not technically closed in the buyers name yet. Builders usually dont own jack squat (although lots of builders buy lots then builder for the buyer, but loan is still in the buyers name).

When does the builder own the house?? When is a construction loan in the builders name? I have NEVER EVER built a house, other than an spec home, that is in MY name. Nor have I ever seen it. Why would a builder have a constructing house in his name? Now a tract home may be different, dont know, but would think even a tract home gets a construction loan in the BUYERS name. Again, just my experience. Interesting to see others though.

 

[Sacedog]

Yep, I agree Ranger. I am currently building a custom home, and come on site at least once daily. I'll be pulling all of the LV myself, even though I am not one of the builders subs. They are more than happy to have me do work, because, as you indicated, the construction loan is in my name. I was there the day they poured the foundation, and the sub let me work the concrete hose for about 10 minutes or so. Likewise, while talking with the framers las week, they let me go to town with the nail gun.

I think this thread is more than likely dealing with a production "track" home. If it is a custom home, is it too late to get a new builder?

 

[beelzerob]

Ditto to everything Sace said. Our last home: "Mr. SalespersonOnSite, can we PLEASE go in and see 'our' house and see how it's progressing....pleeeease? Just for like 10 minutes, and then we'll get off 'our' property. We promise we won't touch anything."

This home: "Hey fellas, good to see you all again today. Hey Tom, how's the trim comin'? That's lookin' good! Hey Tony, I ran another light and switch last night, could you tie it into all the electrics you ran just so I know it's good? Well, if you need me I'll be continuing my work on the stone veneer on the fireplace, don't mind my tools all over the place...."

Night and day.

 

[Squintz]

Are you tied to buying this particular home? What is stoping you from walking away now?

 

[TCassio]

I work for a builder here in the Northeast, and I will try to shed some light on this subject.

There are a couple of different situations that come into play when building a house.

1. A private individual buys a peice of property to build a house on. This person (owner of property) Hires contractors to build his house. He either hires a general contractor to get the job done or he acts as the general contractor and is responsible for hiring all the contractors. In this situation the owner has total control over the development of his property, as long as he adheres to all building codes and has the proper insurance. He may have a construction loan on this property, but the bank does not own the property, unless he defaults.

2. A builder/developer buys a piece of property and divides the porperty into building lots. This is what we do. We start out building spec houses on this property (they usually sell before they are finished). Once this project is started, the property is owned by the builder/developer, not the bank. This means that all that happens on this property, the builder/develpoer is liable for (fire, personal injuryand adherance to local building codes). Now, Mr. John Q. public wants to buy a house that is under construction, we then enter into a contract to complete this home as per the original plans. If the buyer wishes to make changes to the original plans there will be additional costs of course. However, the buyer does not own that property until the house is complete, a certificate of occupancy is issued, and you go to closing. At the end of closing is when the buyer owns the property. This is why contractors are resistant to future owners doing work on the house. Now as far as gouging the buyer for extras goes, well that all depends on how honorable the company is that you chose to do business with.

3. In a large develpoment (100's of homes) its almost impossible to get a builder to diviate from the original plans, even when it comes to LV wiring. This is because there are deadlines to be met. It also becomes a nightmare to manage change orders.

Basically, it all comes down to liability and adhering to local building codes so the house would pass CO inspection.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[drozwood90]

Yep, I agree Ranger. I am currently building a custom home, and come on site at least once daily. I'll be pulling all of the LV myself, even though I am not one of the builders subs. They are more than happy to have me do work, because, as you indicated, the construction loan is in my name. I was there the day they poured the foundation, and the sub let me work the concrete hose for about 10 minutes or so. Likewise, while talking with the framers las week, they let me go to town with the nail gun.

I think this thread is more than likely dealing with a production "track" home. If it is a custom home, is it too late to get a new builder? <_<

My place is a track home.

--Dan