UPB diagnostic tools

[Mr Spock]

After some time I've learned that what I thought was marginal signal strength is actually very intermittent noise issues.  About every 2 or 3 weeks I see that I have severe noise.  It seems to be coming from outside the house.  When it happens all cross phase communication does not work.
 
So what tools are on the market for diagnostic work?  For starters I'd like to be able to monitor and graph noise vs. time over a period of days and weeks.  I suppose I can take a laptop and CIM and ask my neighbors to plug into their porch plugs and try and narrow down the culprit.  This seems difficult at best.
 
Any recommendations?

 

[pete_c]

There is only one tool relating to UPB and that is Upstart that I know of. 
 
You can plug a PIM into a serial to network device (wired or wireless) and do UPB signal measurements in various parts of the home.  I have done this before.
 
You can export a UPB test diagnostic log into your favorite spreadsheet and create graphs if you want.
 
I have never done this. 
 
Here I had a similar but different issue.  I had implemented UPB to 1/3 of the home.  The rest was Insteon at the time.
 
Everything worked well for a period of time (well over a year?)  I had installed one PCS UPB phase coupler for good measure anyways.
 
Seemingly odd one day a very timely succinct signal zapping occurred.  
 
I started to lose signal strength on a few UPB switches always at the same time every day.
 
Initially I did think it was random until I paid attention.
 
Not to spend a bunch of time on the issue purchased an HAI UPB repeater and my signal problems went away.
 
I did attribute the issue post fix to a new in ground pool installation next door and Micky mouse electric (personal opinion).
 
I am not sure if a UPB repeater amplifies noise or eliminates it.

 

[Frunple]

Your power company will set up a meter in your house for you. It will record for a few days or so. You will have to be very careful as to why you are asking for it though, be creative. Say you are losing appliances and an electrician said you had dirty power or something along those lines.

 

[Mr Spock]

I guess I'm surprised there are not real diagnostic tools on the market.  Even X10 had some back in the day.
 
Maybe I'll try Pete's suggestion with the log file.

 

[JonW]

I guess I'm surprised there are not real diagnostic tools on the market.  Even X10 had some back in the day.
 
Maybe I'll try Pete's suggestion with the log file.

 
UpStart plus a PIM is way better than any X10 diagnostic tool I ever saw.  In addition to testing individual switches for signal and noise, you can set it up to run a network communications text every X number of minutes.  You could do this every hour, 1/2 hour, etc and see if there is a pattern to when the noise comes and goes.

 

[Desert_AIP]

The log in UPStart is extremely useful.

 

[pete_c]

Personally I would purchase another PIM/CIM of the same type you are using today to keep for testing and a hot spare. 
 
Curious too if you have a phase coupler / repeater in place?
 
Let us know what happens / what you find.

 

[Mr Spock]

Well my intermittent noise issue is becoming less intermittent.  It always seems to occur between 10PM and midnight. When it happens it seems to last for at least 20 minutes, but I really don't know how long.  It may be varying.
 
FYI, I have a SA inverting phase coupler in my breaker box.
 
Where is this logging function in Upstart?  I found the log file and the Signal & Noise Meter functions.  However the Signal & Noise meter is real time, I don't see anyway to store noise vs. time.  The log file is simple and seems to be of no help in this matter.  I need to be able to store AC line noise vs. time about once a minute over a period of days or weeks.
 
What am I missing in Upstart?

 

[pete_c]

Note that here my scheduled UPB lighting started to go amiss.  I then started to look with Upstart live.
 
I reread what I wrote above. 
 
I started with a PCS phase coupler and that not working to fix my issues went to an HAI UPB repeater.
 
I could only guess as to what the cause was.
 
I didn't bother spending any more time than just the effort to install a repeater.
 
The repeater worked.  More important to me was that the UPB lighting work.
 
There is a PCS repeater on Amazon right now with free shipping (one left) for $124.95 which is a good price.

 

[Desert_AIP]

Well my intermittent noise issue is becoming less intermittent.  It always seems to occur between 10PM and midnight. When it happens it seems to last for at least 20 minutes, but I really don't know how long.  It may be varying.
 
FYI, I have a SA inverting phase coupler in my breaker box.
 
Where is this logging function in Upstart?  I found the log file and the Signal & Noise Meter functions.  However the Signal & Noise meter is real time, I don't see anyway to store noise vs. time.  The log file is simple and seems to be of no help in this matter.  I need to be able to store AC line noise vs. time about once a minute over a period of days or weeks.
 
What am I missing in Upstart?

The meter is real time
However, with the log you can track the traffic being sent.
If you have devices that aren't responding you can identify the source of the traffic and the intended target(s) and whether or not those devices are on the same phase or opposite phases.
Knowing the beginning and ending points and phase can help you narrow down the source of the problem.

It may be noise or it may be signal attenuation. Those are two very different things.

Since you have narrowed down the time frame, you should be able to narrow down the source.
What changes in that period?
What turns on or off?
You may have to actually monitor the line in real time with UPStart to meter the noise levels, there is no log for that.

 

[Desert_AIP]

I had a signal attenuation problem when my electric water heater would come on and bridge the two legs of the electrical panel.
I fixed it by adding additional repeaters.
I narrowed it down by noting that the lost signals occurred during the same period each day and at first appeared intermittent.

So.
Do you have a pump or motor that turns on at 10 pm?
Are you on a shared transformer?
If you are your neighbor's equipment may be interfering.

You already said you thought it was coming from outside the house.
So you'll need to boost your signal or filter out the noise.

You need to do some detective work.

 

[Mr Spock]

Thanks for the replies guys.
 
The problem is definitely noise and not signal strength.  Upstart is very clear about that.  I'm also convinced (but not 100% sure) the noise is coming from outside my house.  There are only two people living here and I have total control of the activities going on in my house.  I am on a shared transformer, but not sure with whom.  Our transformers are underground.  No pumps or motors that turn on on some nights.
 
Yes, I need to be a detective.  I've done a lot of this kind of troubleshooting with X10 in the last decade.  But I need to understand the timing...
 
Question 1: Regarding the repeater.  If this really is coming in from outside my house and its predominantly on one phase (current belief) than will a repeater really help my situation?  It won't just amplify the noise too, thereby not increasing the signal/noise ratio?  Or maybe be blinded to the signal due to the noise and not repeat it?
 
Question 2: Using the Upstart log file I would set it up to ping devices every minute and then view the log files?

 

[pete_c]

Question 1: Regarding the repeater.  If this really is coming in from outside my house and its predominantly on one phase (current belief) than will a repeater really help my situation? 

 
I personally think that it will. 
 
Do a search here on the posts of Cocoontech forum UPB users that have installed a UPB repeater for whatever ailed them.  I would guesstimate that they are happy campers today having installed a UPB repeater.
 
Here I had a UPB signal drop rather than noise occurring in a regular timely manner which I attributed to something outside of my home.  Here the wires run underground to the transformers between the homes.
 
 

It won't just amplify the noise too, thereby not increasing the signal/noise ratio?  Or maybe be blinded to the signal due to the noise and not repeat it?

 
I am optimistic that whatever you see Upstart signal wise will be better with the UPB repeater than without it.
 
Amazon has a very good return policy.  Try it and return it if it doesn't work for you.