More UPB problems with a UPS

[pete_c]

Good news Basildane.

 

The problem devices are not necessarily on another phase, the problem is not the phase coupler. 
If I shutdown the UPS, then all signals are excellent.
There is no measurable noise on the system.  It's like the UPS is a sponge that crushes all the UPB signals.
I have tried switching the UPS to another phase.

 
The assumption is that you will be installing the PCS Repeater and using a new UPB (or two) noise filter on that problematic UPS.
 
You will get higher signals and get rid of that UPB signal sinker.
 
Here the assumption of the signal sinking device was exterior to my home where I could not use a filter. 
 
In place today here are mostly APC old UPS's and CyberPower 1500AVRs. I do see a signal sink coming from my office but it doesn't drop the signal to 2 rather its more like 25-30 in the home office using the UPB repeater.
 
Other CT users have seen stuff with HVAC noisy fans et al.
 
Let us know of your results.

 

[ano]

UPB repeaters are a quite specialized low-volume devices.  They have high prices because they are specialized, but they can have low prices because they are specialized with a small market.  I wouldn't read too much into it.
 
Install the repeater first, then do the troubleshooting.  There has been debate about this but i believe the repeater does increase the signal on the same phase, so a repeater alone may help. If you still are having problems, you will need to do some trial and error and add a filter or two, but that is pretty easy. Yes a UPS does sometimes attenuate UPB, but a few feet away you shouldn't have much of a problem. A signal of 5 or 6 is all you need, and its pretty hard for a signal from a repeater to be blocked that much.
 
Also, there are some 20A UPB filters out there. If you have your UPS plugged into one of those and you STILL have problems, then your problem is NOT the UPS. It could be a noise problem instead.

 

[mikefamig]

Is there any downside to adding the SPR repeater to a UPB system? I have no problems, my signals are all around 50 and I have no noise on the line but I do have a long run to the detached garage and for $35 I'm thinking of replacing my existing phase coupler with one of these phase repeaters to avoid future problems.
 
Mike.

 

[ano]

Is there any downside to adding the SPR repeater to a UPB system? I have no problems, my signals are all around 50 and I have no noise on the line but I do have a long run to the detached garage and for $35 I'm thinking of replacing my existing phase coupler with one of these phase repeaters to avoid future problems.
 
Mike.

The only downside would be if you have any UPB devices which don't support a repeater, then your life will be hell, somewhat. Yes, having a UPB repeater with a device that doesn't support a repeater is worse then no repeater, at least when communicating with UPStart.
 
So, if you have all or mostly repeater compatible devices, go for it, but make sure you remove any couplers. As for devices not supporting repeaters, only SA devices seem troublesome.  If you do have some of these devices, and they are on the "other" phase, you will need to turn off your repeater to access them in UPStart.  Also, the status replies of these switches will not get back to UPStart/panel with a repeater. That may or not be a problem.
 
Also, make sure your PIM(s) is repeater compatible. All HAI ones are, most recent PCS ones are, Web Mountain ones are, but most Simply Automated ones ARE NOT.

 

[mikefamig]

Thanks. My system is almost entirely SA so I guess that I'll take a pass.
 
Mike.

 

[pete_c]

Here have over 70% SA switches and have seen that the HAI repeater did help me with my signal sucking issue.  I see status' just fine.

 

[ano]

Here have over 70% SA switches and have seen that the HAI repeater did help me with my signal sucking issue.  I see status' just fine.

There is no doubt that a repeater WILL help the signal get from the PIM TO the switch.  Where the problem arrises is in the REVERSE direction. You may not notice the missing return signals but UPStart needs the return signal to program a switch.
 
In my former home I had all 1st Gen SA switches, and my repeater didn't work with any of them. I contacted SA about a year ago, and they said all their switches support repeaters now, but they really weren't positive. Recently I bought some of their ceiling fan switches and I can guarentee they DONT support repeater, and they are a recent design.  I do not know for sure if their other newer switches support a repeater. BUT notice how HAI and PCS both sell split-phase repeaters but SA doesn't. SA DOES sell a three-phase repeater. I wonder why?????

 

[pete_c]

UPStart needs the return signal to program a switch.

 
Yup; here program the switches via Upstart connected to a Quatech Server / HAI serial PIM on the second floor and never really have had any issues.  I never shut off the repeater when doing this. 
 
I have read over the years your specifics relating to starting new with UPB.
 
Here over the years started mostly with HAI/PCS and SA switches years ago.  It was some time in the middle 2000's but cannot recall specfics as I was using mostly Insteon and using the OPII panel TW-523 Volp booster to talk X10 to these Insteon switches and didn't pay attention to any of the early UPB switches because they all worked with no phase coupler or repeater at the time.
 
Before the rest of the migration I did have my signal sucking issues (relating to the mostly 2nd floor UPB switches).  I was on the fence relating to whether I should go to HAI or PCS in the very beginning.   The migration from the rest of the automated switches (Insteon) initially started slowly then I quit procratinating and just updated the rest of the house with UPB doing a room or two over a period of a couple of months. 
 
That said I did only utilize new SA UPB switches which were mostly dual load and multitoggle.  Other than the firmware numbers I see on Upstart I don't really know much granular stuff about the switches other than I have not had any issues programming or updating any of the PCS / HAI or SA switches in the home.  Today they talk to primarily the HAI PIM attached to the OmniPro II and SA serial PIM(s) attached to software adjacent to the primary PIM (on different circuits but right next to the HAI PIM).  These three UPB PIMs as well as the 2nd floor PIM have no issues.  I did use the floater PIM when I updated to newer switches a few years back.
 
I have flipped on and off the repeater via Upstart and at the fuse panel and do see a higher signal with it on rather than off.  I still have in place a PCS phase coupler (with a set of breakers) which I keep off but occassionally have turned it on turning off the repeater just to see the signals.

 

[Basildane]

I think I found the filter that I currently have installed on my UPS, just for information's sake.
 
http://www.homecontrols.com/X10-PRO-Noise-Filter-3-Wire-XPXPF

 

[pete_c]

Note that the filter is specific to X10.  X10 is powerline as UPB is powerline.  The two are a bit different though.
 
I really do not know if you can interchange the filter use.  That said I do have two X-10 devices in place at the fuse panel which I have never removed.  (I did set up separate circuits for each powerline PIM connected to the fuse panel - guessing doing this from my X10 experiences over the years).  I did get comfortable with my old home electrical panel back in the 1980's.  My old neighbor was a master electrican for a steel company back then and he taught me a bunch of stuff and provided me with many tools at the time as electricity was a hobby (like automation is today). 
 
While in the X10 protocol the digital information is encoded onto a 120 kHz carrier, transmitted as bursts during the relatively quiet zero crossings of the 50 or 60 Hz AC sine wave. One bit is transmitted at each zero crossing. The UPB powerline protocol works differently.
 
The UPB communication method consists of a series of precisely timed electrical pulses — called UPB Pulses — that are superimposed on the normal AC power sine wave. Receiving UPB devices can easily detect and analyze the UPB Pulses and extract the encoded digital information from them.
 
UPB Pulses are generated by charging a capacitor to a high voltage and then discharging that capacitor into the power line at a precise time. This quick discharging of the capacitor creates a large “spike” (or pulse) on the power line that is easily detectable by receiving UPB devices wired large distances away on the same line.
 
Historically here used filters for my X10 stuff (playing with it since the late 1970's).   In the 80's in old home just put the CM11A at the panel with it's own circuit and ran a very long serial cable for software control. (hardware control was only maybe 15 feet away). 
 
Did also venture over to the ACT TI X-10 interfaces and while they worked I didn't see any improvements in their design over the base CM11A (or original X10 stuff).  I did another test just a few years back comparing their new stuff to Jeff's old stuff and again didn't see it as a better device than the CM11A.  I was never really much impressed with the Insteon PLM talking both X10 and Insteon although the Insteon switches worked fine in said manner for me for many years.  To this day I have never forgiven Insteon for f'ing up what could have been; that is my personal opinion though.
 
I did purchase the Volp XTB when first introduced and that device did solve my X10 issues when the OPII panel primarily talked X10.  I never did bother with the HAI provided dual TW-523 on the OPII until Jeff Volp introduced the dual phase TW-523 emulator.  That is in place today for the OPII panel and works great. 
 
Here I can state that Jeff Volp did fix or make X10 better with his X10 wares.
 
Over the years and just relating to my Christmas lighting I did try Insteon, Z-Wave and UPB.  I would leave the switches on line off season. (well it was a waste of extra automated switches).
 
It was a PITA such that I have gone back to using X10.   Now use one house code and I do test all of the lighting going on with a wireless remote and they do all turn on at the same time which I like.
 
Today I do not use any filters outside of the fuse panel for my UPB/X10 stuff.
 
The UPB repeater does work with all of my UPB switches and it might work for you or not. 
 
It really does depend on your specfic electrical environment and what you have online that is power sucking or noisy. 

 

[ano]

Pete, you have newer Simply Automated switches than I so maybe some do work with a repeater.  Here is how you would truly test. 
1) Turn of all couplers and repeaters in the house.
2) Find a switch or device on the OPPOSITE phase from the PIM that you can't communicate with.  Verify that UPStart CAN't program the switch because signal is too weak.   **NOTE If you can't perform step #2, you DON"T need a repeater. A simple coupler is all you need, if that.
3) Turn ON the repeater. If UPStart can now see and program your switch, the switch 100% supports a repeater.
4) If you turn ON the repeater, and UPStart STILL can't see or program the switch, the switch does NOT support a repeater.
 
The key is, if you can program a switch WITHOUT a repeater or coupler, and you can do the same WITH a repeater, your not really proving the repeater did anything or that the switch supports it. And the repeater will DEFINITELY help in the PIM to switch direction, which is what most people care about anyway.
 
 
UPB and X-10 are different technologies as Pete says, but I generally believe filters for one should work for the other.  Both filters are essentially the same low-pass. filters. they pass 60 Hz. but block higher frequencies. For X-10 the higher frequency is the 120 KHz carrier. UPB doesn't really have a "frequency" because it uses pulses, and as you might remember from electronics class, the faster the pulse, the higher the frequency it represents.  So X-10 filters and UPB filters do the same thing, they pass low frequencies and block high frequencies with a series inductor(s) and parallel capacitor(s).

 

[pete_c]

Thank-you Ano.
 
Right now with my OmniPro II HAI UPB PIM all of the hodgepode UPB switches are touched by some event from the OPII and they do all work in a timely manner. (on off dim). 
 
I will get granular with my testing and post images from Upstart (I have done that before).
 
Easy to do with the multiple PIMs on the two phases, PCS switchable phase coupler (still in place but off) and switchable HAI UPB repeater.
 

you have newer Simply Automated switches than I so maybe some do work with a repeater.

 
There was a UPB spend to update to all new SA UPB switches a few years back after an electronic debacle here which took out the remainder of the Insteon switches (which made me quit procastinating relating to endeavor of the migration to all UPB).  I did leave many (not all) of the older HAI, PCS and SA UPB switches in place.
 
Here in the midwest and I don't know if it has anything to do with the UPB stuff I am still blocking out and coupling the two phases with X10 in the panel as X10 is still utilized.

 

[kurtmccaslin]

Ano, thanks for the tip on the SPR1   I just bought one!

 

[fcwilt]

I've got many UPS devices around my home and they are all plugged in via UPB filters.
 
No problems.
 
Recently I've had problems as I have installed more and more LED "bulbs".

 

[Frunple]

I actually got a different brand filter set rated at 15 A, 4 or 5 years ago and wired it in.  That hasn't helped much.  I don't recall the brand, it's in the panel right now.
Are you suggesting taking two of these in parallel?

That's correct. Will work perfectly and solve all the problems with the UPS.
Call SAI tech support if you want, they'll tell you the same thing, that's who told me about it.