toymaster458
Active Member
Yets not forget about Wireless keypads that work off of RF instead of IR.
UPB Generation II Core
- Thread starter mlester
- Start date
kwilcox
Active Member
My vote goes to lightbars too. There's nothing like the dim-level visual feedback you get from a well designed lightbar. The Smarthome X10 switchlincs set the standard here IMO. I like their design over that of the newer Insteon switchlincs.
With regards to the delay, this pretty much isn't an issue when default ramp rates are used, but in Snap! mode its actually quite noticable. I think its a neurological issue: The delay is just long enough to make me ask myelf "Did I tap the switch hard enough" but not quite long enough to actually initiate a motor response before the light comes on. Consequently, its actually quite irksome because I find myself having to cancel out of that stimulus-response behavior with UPB switches. However, I use motion detected switch activation so I hardly ever use the switches themselves. In this application, UPB's speed has halved the lights-on delay and consequently, I'm quite happy. However, I imagine I'd be bothered by that lights-on delay if I didn't.
With regards to the delay, this pretty much isn't an issue when default ramp rates are used, but in Snap! mode its actually quite noticable. I think its a neurological issue: The delay is just long enough to make me ask myelf "Did I tap the switch hard enough" but not quite long enough to actually initiate a motor response before the light comes on. Consequently, its actually quite irksome because I find myself having to cancel out of that stimulus-response behavior with UPB switches. However, I use motion detected switch activation so I hardly ever use the switches themselves. In this application, UPB's speed has halved the lights-on delay and consequently, I'm quite happy. However, I imagine I'd be bothered by that lights-on delay if I didn't.
Great topic.
On the delay issue -- please, absolutely look into this. I have 77 UPB switches installed and in most cases, the delay is not terribly noticable because of the ramp up (though, of course, the ramp up doesn't start until nearly 3/4 second after you press the switch).
But in places with snap on, it's a real pain. In a dark room, if I'm at a normal walking pace and press the light switch, I get between 3 and 6 feet into the room before the lights come on (with snap). You can stub yourself on quite a bit in that space.
And to echo the previous poster, the other major thing is that "did I hit the button?" worry that makes you pause and think for a second. A light switch shouldn't ever make you pause and think if you just used it. With no other physical feedback (i.e. with a normal switch, something physically moves to a new state/position), not having an instant response is a big deal.
Where I live, there are a lot of mid to higher end homes with folks looking at HA tech and because of my association with a few higher end local builders, I've been helping a number of folks out. At least half of the folks I show UPB to pass on it because of the delay. Seriously -- at least half.
These are folks who then go on to try higher end X10 switches or Insteon or in a few cases, ZWave. As folks have mentioned, all of those technologies have problem too. And these are folks who are not very "price concious" -- they'll drop 10k outfiting a home theater without blinking (often more).
And if you want more, search these forums or the Authomated Home forums or a few other HA releated forums and you will see the delay issue brought up time and time again. I'd say it really is the #1 "issue" I've seen discussed about UPB switches in the online world.
I think that if there is no double tap action, the switch should start doing whatever it's supposed to do immediatly (turn on, ramp up, snap on, or snap off). Then, ideally, any delay for double tapping would be configurable. For folks in houses with nimble fingers, they may set want to set the double tap delay to 1/4 second, but for folks who are older/arthritic or disabled, they might want to push it up to 2 seconds or so. Making adjustable means everyone gets the rate they want (vs a "one size fits all" approach that rarely fits all).
Having spent time with most of the technology out there right now, I really feel UPB is the best wireless/refit technology out there. The cost is a bit higher, though when you start equiping a house and buying 20 or more units at a time, you can get a significant price break, so that they aren't much more expensive than ZWave and are cheaper (in quantity) than some of the highe end Leviton X10 switches. The switches are incredibly flexible and the UPStart software gives pretty good control over things (see notes below though).
The light bars things others have mentioned would be nice, though it's never come up in my conversations with folks. Putting a full RGB led for the pilot light would be very cool to allow any color to be used (but I'm a bit off on that stuff -- see rgbled.org).
One last issue -- UPStart. It's frustrating to use sometimes. It seems every vendor has different options enabled or disabled and so if you download it from SAI, then certain options (like graphical editing) aren't available for HAI switches or PCS switches, etc. There seems to be some (perhaps unintentional) attemp at lock-in and that doesn't sit well with me. Also, some new tools to let you do things like copying/duplicating existing switches and links (especially links) would be a huge thing. I often want to make a new link that is just like an old link but for a few minor differences. If the link has 40 switches, right now, since there is no way to copy that link as a starting point, I have to manually re-type those 40 switches into the new link. Phui. Being able to just copy a link and then edit a few switches would be a huge help.
Finally, it would be a great help for editing links to have some sort of spreadsheet mode where you could see all the devices in the link and their levels and faderates all on one "spreadhseet" and be able to edit them there (vs doinking around with each and every switch -- another tedious process).
I don't mean to kvetch because I really do like UPB. I also realize that not all of this may be fitting into what you were looking for with this topic. Please forgive the length, but given whose ear is listening, even if just a little, I couldn't pass up the oppotunity to share items from my UPB "wishlist".
Gerry
On the delay issue -- please, absolutely look into this. I have 77 UPB switches installed and in most cases, the delay is not terribly noticable because of the ramp up (though, of course, the ramp up doesn't start until nearly 3/4 second after you press the switch).
But in places with snap on, it's a real pain. In a dark room, if I'm at a normal walking pace and press the light switch, I get between 3 and 6 feet into the room before the lights come on (with snap). You can stub yourself on quite a bit in that space.
And to echo the previous poster, the other major thing is that "did I hit the button?" worry that makes you pause and think for a second. A light switch shouldn't ever make you pause and think if you just used it. With no other physical feedback (i.e. with a normal switch, something physically moves to a new state/position), not having an instant response is a big deal.
Where I live, there are a lot of mid to higher end homes with folks looking at HA tech and because of my association with a few higher end local builders, I've been helping a number of folks out. At least half of the folks I show UPB to pass on it because of the delay. Seriously -- at least half.
These are folks who then go on to try higher end X10 switches or Insteon or in a few cases, ZWave. As folks have mentioned, all of those technologies have problem too. And these are folks who are not very "price concious" -- they'll drop 10k outfiting a home theater without blinking (often more).
And if you want more, search these forums or the Authomated Home forums or a few other HA releated forums and you will see the delay issue brought up time and time again. I'd say it really is the #1 "issue" I've seen discussed about UPB switches in the online world.
I think that if there is no double tap action, the switch should start doing whatever it's supposed to do immediatly (turn on, ramp up, snap on, or snap off). Then, ideally, any delay for double tapping would be configurable. For folks in houses with nimble fingers, they may set want to set the double tap delay to 1/4 second, but for folks who are older/arthritic or disabled, they might want to push it up to 2 seconds or so. Making adjustable means everyone gets the rate they want (vs a "one size fits all" approach that rarely fits all).
Having spent time with most of the technology out there right now, I really feel UPB is the best wireless/refit technology out there. The cost is a bit higher, though when you start equiping a house and buying 20 or more units at a time, you can get a significant price break, so that they aren't much more expensive than ZWave and are cheaper (in quantity) than some of the highe end Leviton X10 switches. The switches are incredibly flexible and the UPStart software gives pretty good control over things (see notes below though).
The light bars things others have mentioned would be nice, though it's never come up in my conversations with folks. Putting a full RGB led for the pilot light would be very cool to allow any color to be used (but I'm a bit off on that stuff -- see rgbled.org).
One last issue -- UPStart. It's frustrating to use sometimes. It seems every vendor has different options enabled or disabled and so if you download it from SAI, then certain options (like graphical editing) aren't available for HAI switches or PCS switches, etc. There seems to be some (perhaps unintentional) attemp at lock-in and that doesn't sit well with me. Also, some new tools to let you do things like copying/duplicating existing switches and links (especially links) would be a huge thing. I often want to make a new link that is just like an old link but for a few minor differences. If the link has 40 switches, right now, since there is no way to copy that link as a starting point, I have to manually re-type those 40 switches into the new link. Phui. Being able to just copy a link and then edit a few switches would be a huge help.
Finally, it would be a great help for editing links to have some sort of spreadsheet mode where you could see all the devices in the link and their levels and faderates all on one "spreadhseet" and be able to edit them there (vs doinking around with each and every switch -- another tedious process).
I don't mean to kvetch because I really do like UPB. I also realize that not all of this may be fitting into what you were looking for with this topic. Please forgive the length, but given whose ear is listening, even if just a little, I couldn't pass up the oppotunity to share items from my UPB "wishlist".
Gerry
Marshall,
Please make sure to read the transcript of a chat that Coocontech held with Simply Automated's representatives. It was long, but you will hear more feedbaak about UPB:
http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=2940&hl=chat
Another important request mentioned in the chat but not here is a duplex dimmer - capable of controlling two local loads from a single electrical gang box. Most ot the switches in the common areas of my house are duplex. Open option is to install a wired-in dimmer, but I dont always have a space to hide it. An with a concrete house its impossible to add another gang box.
Please make sure to read the transcript of a chat that Coocontech held with Simply Automated's representatives. It was long, but you will hear more feedbaak about UPB:
http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=2940&hl=chat
Another important request mentioned in the chat but not here is a duplex dimmer - capable of controlling two local loads from a single electrical gang box. Most ot the switches in the common areas of my house are duplex. Open option is to install a wired-in dimmer, but I dont always have a space to hide it. An with a concrete house its impossible to add another gang box.
Marshall: for the love of god, please have the local load control delay fixed! When the switches are set into non-dimmer, or 'snap!' mode, there is roughly 1/3 of a second delay after you press the button but before it does anything. This goes for turning on and off equally.
We have a house full of Insteon switches because of the delay. We rarely use double-tap and would like to disable it entirely.
As far as noise goes, we have terrible UPB signal propagation across phases, even with passive phase couplers. (We've tried several different devices). I'm looking for an active coupler/repeater that can be used in residential 2-phase buildings. I know there is a 3-phase version but I never got around to finding out if it can be used in a 2-phase mode. We simply eliminated all the UPB devices on the wrong phase here to solve the problem. Putting a second PIM on the second phase worked, but I needed the pim on a different computer. I never got around to getting a third PIM.
Amusingly, the passive residential UPB phase couplers work better here at bridging Insteon traffic across phases than they do at bridging UPB traffic.
Up until two weeks ago, we've had generally excellent noise immunity with the remaining UPB devices. However, in the last two weeks we've had a few of days where the UPB system has gone to hell. We normally have full-scale signal strength and essentially zero noise according to upstart. I'm a little puzzled as to what might cause this as nothing has changed in the building electrically that I'm aware of. Actually, I was thinking about it while writing this and the thought just occurred to me that the Air conditioner compressor has been running more often due to the warmer weather in the last few weeks. I'm going to have to test that theory but I don't think that is the whole story. It only happens occasionally, but generally lasts all day, and for only one day.
Overall, my generic UPB complaints:
1) delay in response to rocker switch (top of the list by a huge margin!!)
2) lack of residental 2-phase active phase coupler/repeater.
3) buzz at switches (we sort of got used to it, but it kept scaring our visitors who thought the switches were burning out!)
The delay is the deal breaker for us. My wife utterly hates them.
And even on cases where the dimmer is enabled, I would prefer to be able to configure the switch so that it start the ramp-up immediately at the first click, and simply change its mind if it detects a double-tap. Obviously one would have to ensure that the choices of single or double-tap actions were compatible.
Or another possiblity.. When local load control is enabled and when single-tap == ramp-on and double-tap == snap on, then begin ramping at the first tap and snap at the second tap if it is close enough. And delay the transmission of any UPB messages until the type of tap is unambiguous. But the key is to get the local control load response immediate.
-Peter
PS: I know this isn't your problem but I wish the SAI switches were about 1/16th of an inch shorter. They are slightly too tall to fit in our junction boxes. HAI bodies are smaller and fit ok, but I hate the feel of them.
We have a house full of Insteon switches because of the delay. We rarely use double-tap and would like to disable it entirely.
As far as noise goes, we have terrible UPB signal propagation across phases, even with passive phase couplers. (We've tried several different devices). I'm looking for an active coupler/repeater that can be used in residential 2-phase buildings. I know there is a 3-phase version but I never got around to finding out if it can be used in a 2-phase mode. We simply eliminated all the UPB devices on the wrong phase here to solve the problem. Putting a second PIM on the second phase worked, but I needed the pim on a different computer. I never got around to getting a third PIM.
Amusingly, the passive residential UPB phase couplers work better here at bridging Insteon traffic across phases than they do at bridging UPB traffic.
Up until two weeks ago, we've had generally excellent noise immunity with the remaining UPB devices. However, in the last two weeks we've had a few of days where the UPB system has gone to hell. We normally have full-scale signal strength and essentially zero noise according to upstart. I'm a little puzzled as to what might cause this as nothing has changed in the building electrically that I'm aware of. Actually, I was thinking about it while writing this and the thought just occurred to me that the Air conditioner compressor has been running more often due to the warmer weather in the last few weeks. I'm going to have to test that theory but I don't think that is the whole story. It only happens occasionally, but generally lasts all day, and for only one day.
Overall, my generic UPB complaints:
1) delay in response to rocker switch (top of the list by a huge margin!!)
2) lack of residental 2-phase active phase coupler/repeater.
3) buzz at switches (we sort of got used to it, but it kept scaring our visitors who thought the switches were burning out!)
The delay is the deal breaker for us. My wife utterly hates them.
And even on cases where the dimmer is enabled, I would prefer to be able to configure the switch so that it start the ramp-up immediately at the first click, and simply change its mind if it detects a double-tap. Obviously one would have to ensure that the choices of single or double-tap actions were compatible.
Or another possiblity.. When local load control is enabled and when single-tap == ramp-on and double-tap == snap on, then begin ramping at the first tap and snap at the second tap if it is close enough. And delay the transmission of any UPB messages until the type of tap is unambiguous. But the key is to get the local control load response immediate.
-Peter
PS: I know this isn't your problem but I wish the SAI switches were about 1/16th of an inch shorter. They are slightly too tall to fit in our junction boxes. HAI bodies are smaller and fit ok, but I hate the feel of them.
I'll put in my two cents. The delay turning on switches is the number one issue keeping me away from UPB. It would be ideal to disable the double tap function through software or after setup. Not as big, but still important to me is the slight buzzing UPB switches make. Thanks for coming on Cocoontech and listening to the feedback!
--Jamie
--Jamie
kwilcox
Active Member
More to Marshall's point though,
I've not had too many noise issues with UPB other than a pesky problem with two laptop powersupplies on the same circuit as a UPB device. Interestingly, that same circuit also houses most of my AV devices and is a major X10 black hole too. I was actually quite surprised when an X10 noise filter fixed my UPB issue.
Perhaps a UPB noise filter might also be a worthwile development effort since most of us won't be able to afford a complete retrofit to Gen II.
I've not had too many noise issues with UPB other than a pesky problem with two laptop powersupplies on the same circuit as a UPB device. Interestingly, that same circuit also houses most of my AV devices and is a major X10 black hole too. I was actually quite surprised when an X10 noise filter fixed my UPB issue.
Perhaps a UPB noise filter might also be a worthwile development effort since most of us won't be able to afford a complete retrofit to Gen II.
