UPB magnetic dimmer

[Mr Spock]

I'm looking for a UPB plug-in (or duplex receptacle) AC dimmer that works on low power transformers.  I have a 40W 120VAC input transformer with 12VDC output at full on for LED dimming that I want to control.
 
Alternatively if you know of a switching power supply for LED dimming that can be controlled with a standard UPB AC dimmer that will work for me too.
 
My understanding is that a "magnetic dimmer" is required to get the dimming profile correct.
 
Thanks.

 

[tmbrown97]

No first hand experience, but this looks like an option:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IICNEJ6/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00IICNEJ6&linkCode=as2&tag=unhappily-20&linkId=NGJ4K2NAZ2T7I3T2
 
Supposedly you can use the standard dimmers with it.

 

[fcwilt]

I've used the ones the Work2Play referenced with UPB devices and they seem to work fine - no issues to date.

 

[ano]

I second that.  You have to remember that dimmers typically chop the 120V sinewave up into smaller pieces. This worked fine for incandescent lights where the brightness was directly related to the power of the bulb. With LED lighting, where an LED is powered through a power supply, its a whole new ballgame. LED power supplies (in LED bulbs, or in a device like this) designed for dimming get around this problem by actually "reading" the waveform put out by the dimmer, then adjusting the brightness of the LEDs to match what it thinks the dimmer is saying.  A "dumb" transformer connected to a dimmer would never do this job very well. Invest in a good solution like Work2Play suggests if you want it to work well.

 

[Mr Spock]

Yep. That transformer W2P listed is exactly the one I planned on using.  It is a simple transformer with bridge rectifier on the output to convert AC to DC.  Its not a switching power supply.  I've searched and not found any switching power supplies that allow dimming for LEDs.  There are plenty of switchers that are constant voltage or constant current, but none (that I could find) that will dim.  But that was not my question.
 
I am looking for a UPB plug-in "lamp module" that works with this transformer (magnetic/inductive load).  Some AC (triac) based dimmers work well with these inductive loads and some don't.
 
I've done more searching since originally posting and found two products that claim to work on these loads: the Pulseworxs LM1 and the Simply Automated UML-20.  But I now have a new wrinkle in my plans...
 
I've just discovered that I will probably need a UPB repeater.  A week ago I installed an inverting phase coupler in my breaker box.  At first I thought it was sufficient, but now realize its not.  There is intermittently sufficient signal strength between the two phases.
 
So assuming I install a UPB repeater which of these two products will work best with a repeater?  I know there are issues with pre-gen III UPB devices and repeaters but don't know the details.  FYI all my (currently only two) UPB devices are either new HAI/Leviton or Simply Automated devices.
 
Thanks.

 

[fcwilt]

I've never tried a repeater but I understand that they can work very well. I know that not all devices work with repeaters so you need to check that.
 
However I found that, in my home, the inverting phase couplers did not work anywhere near as well as the non-inverting phase couplers.
 
There are several LED drivers (switching power supplies) that will dim BUT the only ones the come to mind use a 1-10 VDC input, or a PWM signal or a resistor. 
 
I don't recall any that work off of a typical in-wall light dimmer.

 

[ano]

I have lots of experience with repeaters. I can guarantee the Pulseworxs LM1 supports repeaters. From my experiments, most Simply Automated products still don't. But its not the end of the world. A repeater will ALWAYS help the signal getting from the PIM to the module, but the problem is in the reverse direction.  So a non-supported device will NOT be able to get its replies to the OTHER phase PIM. This will prevent UPStart from programming it because the repliess are needed, but to get around it you can just plug the module in near the PIM to program and then move it back.  You won't receive status across phases, but otherwise it will work fine.  I have a few SA devices and I just live with it. Repeaters are fantastic otherwise though. You will wonder why you didn't get one a long time ago. I'd go with Pulseworx if your worried, but it likely costs much more. Depending on your use case, support may or may not matter.

 

[tmbrown97]

I ended up going all SA... in my last house, no repeater/phase coupler was necessary, but in this house I did need it... one wasn't sufficient but working with SA, it was determined that multiple phase couplers could be used, so I ran 3 in parallel.  I could see the difference between 0 and 1, and between 1 and 2.  Between 2 and 3 was minimal (like 1-2 on the signal) but I had already bought them so I went for it anyway.
 
Because I'm all SA, I have no experience with the repeaters.  I know the different manufacturers say different things about the different generations (including that it's a licensing ploy) - I know SA feels that they've overcome the shortcomings without going Gen II or III - but you can buy SA switches from WebMountain with GenII firmware.  Again, I haven't done anything with them because I don't have any problems even in a decent sized house.

 

[ano]

In my last house I had to use three phase couplers and I used all SA switches. Signal was marginal in some areas, but generally worked but a few areas were iffy. Like you say the second coupler increased signal, the third one less so.
 
New house has a Pulseworx repeater and Leviton switches. Signal is fantastic everywhere and I never even bother to look at it anymore. I do have a few SA switches like their 3-speed fan controllers and I do have problems with signals for them when they are on the other phase, but since this only applies to two switches, I'm just ignoring them.
 
I like the SA switches (except for the 3-speed fan controllers which look like they are from the 80's) but if you want reliability, a repeater and Gen2+ switches is the way to go.

 

[Mr Spock]

Thanks for the info guys.
 
To invert or not invert, that is the question.  If I understand the reason to invert correctly, its because the signal that comes back from the street transformer on the other phase is inverted.  Therefore the phase coupler should be inverting to match (and not cancel) what the transformer is doing.  If this is correct, why would anyone want a non inverting phase coupler?
 
Follow up question on repeaters.  Who do you recommend?  Is there any time delay with them?  In my old house I had an X10 repeater and it added about a 1+ second delay to the amplified signal on the other phase.

 

[ano]

Invert or not. In the early days a long discussion with a SA engineer said it wasn't so much that the signal is inverted or not from the transformer, it was the distance that you were from the transformer that mattered. After a certain distance you need one or the other. I can't remember which was for far transformers and which for close. Sorry.
 
UPB repeaters really don't add much delay. In UPB, a command is always sent twice. The repeater broadcasts the second command on the other phase at the precise same time it is broadcast on the first phase. So a device on the second phase may or may not see the first command, but it WILL see the second strong repeated command. A UPB command takes roughly 0.25 seconds, so best case there is no delay, worst case is maybe 0.25 second. I don't think you'll notice much delay either way.

 

[fcwilt]

When I got started with UPB I purchased both types of couplers and using the measurement tools in UPStart determined which type of coupler worked best in my home.

 

[ano]

When I got started with UPB I purchased both types of couplers and using the measurement tools in UPStart determined which type of coupler worked best in my home.

Which did?  I do remember that non-inverting couplers can't be used in numbers greater than 1, inverting couplers can have as many as you like. I think SA only sells inverting couplers but others sell non-inverting.

 

[fcwilt]

I ended up using the HAI devices, one in each of three load centers. 
 
I tried the SA devices but in my home they made things worse.