upstart cannot see new devices or give me signal

[BryanE]

Chris, I don't think this is a line noise issue as much as it is a PIM problem. I'm going to try my PIM at another location today, so I'll let you know how that works out. I have the same problem with the signal level and noise meters BTW.

 

[fcwilt]

The PIM at the main panel is (more or less) equally close to devices on both phases.

I do not think that a PIM located at the main panel is equally close to devices on both phases. The signal has to propagate all the way to the transformer that feeds the house and back to get to the opposite phase.

tenholde

Phase coupler remember? And I said "more or less". And the transformer is about 20 feet away from the panel.

 

[fcwilt]

You SHOULDN'T mix inverting and non-inverting. Also, you should ONLY use one non-inverting coupler per application BUT you can parallel multiple inverting couplers to increase signal. I use three at my house.

I didn't - I tried both kinds at different times to judge the performance. For any given kind I tried different panels and combinations of panels to determine what worked best.

 

[tenholde]

The PIM at the main panel is (more or less) equally close to devices on both phases.

I do not think that a PIM located at the main panel is equally close to devices on both phases. The signal has to propagate all the way to the transformer that feeds the house and back to get to the opposite phase.

tenholde

Phase coupler remember? And I said "more or less". And the transformer is about 20 feet away from the panel.

Your transformer my be 20 feet away, but that's pretty abnormal for most.

You didn't say you placed your PIM near your phase coupler. Many are co-located, but not all and the insinuation in your message was that locating the PIM near the panel (because that is where the two phases more or less come together) was helpful. I was only pointing out to those on this board that if they have the misconception that their phases somehow come together at the panel, that this it not so. The signal gets propogated from one phase to the other through the area's transformer, not the panel. The transformer could be 3 or four houses away, and therefore one phase is a long way away from the other at the panel. Finally, the phase coupler can only propogate a diminished signal across the phases wherever it is located -- that is why some people try using more than one.

 

[chrisdias]

Chris, I don't think this is a line noise issue as much as it is a PIM problem. I'm going to try my PIM at another location today, so I'll let you know how that works out. I have the same problem with the signal level and noise meters BTW.

i think mine is a pIM problem as well.

let me know what you find.

i wish i had a serial port on my laptop so i could move around the house...

i'll keep posting.

chris

 

[BryanE]

Chris,

The not so good news... it appears that blaming the PIM might have been a bit premature. I tested the PIM at a new location and it appears to be working fine.

Do you have any other lighting products installed (X10, Insteon, etc.)? I have an extensive Insteon network that I now believe might be the culprit. I’m a bit surprised UPB is so susceptible to noise. Does anyone else have a split Insteon/UPB environment?

 

[fcwilt]

Your transformer my be 20 feet away, but that's pretty abnormal for most.

You didn't say you placed your PIM near your phase coupler. Many are co-located, but not all and the insinuation in your message was that locating the PIM near the panel (because that is where the two phases more or less come together) was helpful. I was only pointing out to those on this board that if they have the misconception that their phases somehow come together at the panel, that this it not so. The signal gets propogated from one phase to the other through the area's transformer, not the panel. The transformer could be 3 or four houses away, and therefore one phase is a long way away from the other at the panel. Finally, the phase coupler can only propogate a diminished signal across the phases wherever it is located -- that is why some people try using more than one.

You are correct - but phase couplers do help - in my case the signal on the other phase went up a good deal.

And - again in my case - the PIM in an outlet near the main panel (and thus near the phase coupler) creates a good signal on both phases. The PIM in an outlet in my office will not (for whatever reason) put a strong enough signal on the other phase to reach all devices. So the placement of the PIM and the use of a phase coupler was needed in my home to get everything to work reliably.

And that was my point - badly worded - that experimentation with location, etc may be needed to get things to work. A user may WANT to put a PIM in a certain location but they may not be able to do so.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[chrisdias]

Chris,

The not so good news... it appears that blaming the PIM might have been a bit premature. I tested the PIM at a new location and it appears to be working fine.

Do you have any other lighting products installed (X10, Insteon, etc.)? I have an extensive Insteon network that I now believe might be the culprit. I’m a bit surprised UPB is so susceptible to noise. Does anyone else have a split Insteon/UPB environment?

no other lighting /powerline anything installed.

this morning i was able to get one additional switch setup through the noisy outlet. upstart recognized the dimmer as on the same phase, so it seems like i've got a noisy phase and a quiet phase.

i dont have a coupler.

i'm going to try to install another switch on the quiet phase and see if i can get to that one easily.

do you have a serial or USB UPB? i think i need to get a USB one so i can run around the house with my laptop...

chris

 

[fcwilt]

do you have a serial or USB UPB? i think i need to get a USB one so i can run around the house with my laptop...

You can get a USB to serial adapter for you laptop and use your existing PIM. Not all adapters work so do some research first on good ones.

You will probably will need a phase couple and perhaps some UPB filters to clean up the noise. You may need to filter some or all of your UPS's, computers or computer-like devices. All of my computers are on UPS's but I found that the UPS's were sucking up UPB signal, a filter on each took care of that.

 

[beerguy]

Chris, I've had UPB installed for almost 3 years (about 40 switches) and at least once or twice a year, and always when I'm out of town and my wife is home with the kids, something happens and I lose total communication between over half of my devices. My PIM can't see them, other switches can't see each other, links stop working. It all goes to hell. It usually lasts a couple of days at most. The only thing I can figure is that some neighbor is doing something that is really hosing my UPB signal through the transformer. Could this be your issue?

This doesn't give you a solution but sure sounds like a similar problem.

Hope you get it figured out as I know how frustrating it can be.

Pat

 

[BryanE]

Chris, I've had UPB installed for almost 3 years (about 40 switches) and at least once or twice a year, and always when I'm out of town and my wife is home with the kids, something happens and I lose total communication between over half of my devices. My PIM can't see them, other switches can't see each other, links stop working. It all goes to hell. It usually lasts a couple of days at most.

Wow Pat... that's scary. After the first time that happened my wife would have me ripping out the entire installation. Anyone else have a story like this?

 

[chrisdias]

every day before i head out for work this week, i've tried to see if i can connect to my lights.

usually, no luck.

today, no noise, strong signal, and i can communicate across phases (without a coupler installed).

i dont know if i should be happy or even more frustrated! I have no idea what has changed... must be something outside of my house and out of my control since nothing is different in the house.

chris

 

[chrisdias]

every day before i head out for work this week, i've tried to see if i can connect to my lights.

usually, no luck.

today, no noise, strong signal, and i can communicate across phases (without a coupler installed).

i dont know if i should be happy or even more frustrated! I have no idea what has changed... must be something outside of my house and out of my control since nothing is different in the house.

chris

and.... now my oPII can only kind of sorta see the two new lights i added. it saw one once or twice, cannot see the other. upstart can see all three...

(name changed back to argh)

 

[fcwilt]

Well as someone pointed out without a phase coupler of some sort for the signal on one phase to get to the other phase it was to travel all the way to the transformer and back again. That can be a good distance and all sorts of things can affect it along the way.

Get a phase coupler for starters and see how that does.