Using Elk Relays to Control Outlet directly?

[Madcodger]

All,

Wondering if this will work before I order the equipment:

I would like to be able to control some outlets located in the same utility closet as my Elk M1G (only one outlet per circuit, as they are used only for automation) WITHOUT using any third-party devices such as Insteon, UPB, etc. In fact, my initial need for this is to be able to "reset" my Insteon PLM (used with Homeseer) when the blasted thing locks up. However, I think I could also use this to reset my router if necessary, even if it were plugged into an Uninterruptible Power Supply (a UPS, which filters most powerline signals that could be used on an alternate technology plug-in device like an X10 appliance linc).

Here's my plan:

1) Connect an Elk-M1RB relay board OR a relay on an Elk-M1XOVR, OR an Elk-912 or 912B directly to the M1G (would really like to know if any or all of these would work for the purpose below, please).

2) Wire the AC power neutral leg directly to the outlet to be controlled, as is normal.

3) Wire the hot leg through one of the relays above, as a normally closed circuit, before connecting to the hot side of the outlet. The power line draw for either a PLM or a router would be much, much less than the rated 10A @ 125 VAC of these, correct?

4) IF the Insteon PLM locks up on me when I'm away (has happened, and shuts me down for lighting control), I could just turn on the respective Elk output for 30 seconds via the web using the M1XEP, which would open the circuit and allow the Insteon PLM to reset.

4a) The same could be done via either Homeseer or possibly even Elk Rules for the router if a ping failed repeatedly, except I'd plug this type of "outlet" into the UPS.

So... Is this something so obvious I should have seen it long before this? Are others doing it? Unless I completely misunderstand the use of these relays, it seems one could have hard-wired on / off control of outlets / circuits located very close to the M1, creating a good method of resetting other automation devices.

Am I missing something here? Do I misunderstand the use of these relays? Or can I just do it?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[sqhughes]

All,

Wondering if this will work before I order the equipment:

I would like to be able to control some outlets located in the same utility closet as my Elk M1G (only one outlet per circuit, as they are used only for automation) WITHOUT using any third-party devices such as Insteon, UPB, etc. In fact, my initial need for this is to be able to "reset" my Insteon PLM (used with Homeseer) when the blasted thing locks up. However, I think I could also use this to reset my router if necessary, even if it were plugged into an Uninterruptible Power Supply (a UPS, which filters most powerline signals that could be used on an alternate technology plug-in device like an X10 appliance linc).

Here's my plan:

1) Connect an Elk-M1RB relay board OR a relay on an Elk-M1XOVR, OR an Elk-912 or 912B directly to the M1G (would really like to know if any or all of these would work for the purpose below, please).

2) Wire the AC power neutral leg directly to the outlet to be controlled, as is normal.

3) Wire the hot leg through one of the relays above, as a normally closed circuit, before connecting to the hot side of the outlet. The power line draw for either a PLM or a router would be much, much less than the rated 10A @ 125 VAC of these, correct?

4) IF the Insteon PLM locks up on me when I'm away (has happened, and shuts me down for lighting control), I could just turn on the respective Elk output for 30 seconds via the web using the M1XEP, which would open the circuit and allow the Insteon PLM to reset.

4a) The same could be done via either Homeseer or possibly even Elk Rules for the router if a ping failed repeatedly, except I'd plug this type of "outlet" into the UPS.

So... Is this something so obvious I should have seen it long before this? Are others doing it? Unless I completely misunderstand the use of these relays, it seems one could have hard-wired on / off control of outlets / circuits located very close to the M1, creating a good method of resetting other automation devices.

Am I missing something here? Do I misunderstand the use of these relays? Or can I just do it?

Thanks,

Joe

Joe,

I'm doing exactly what you described with 110V for a hot water circulator in my garage. I also use the relays to control my exterior low voltage lighting. I was thinking about using an Elk relay to trip the reset switch on my Homeseer PC.


Scott

 

[123]

I haven't tried what you've proposed but I believe you are on the right track.

I'm sure there are electrical standards for this situation ... and I don't know them. I was thinking about how I'd wire this up and concocted the attached solution. You might be able to squeeze an ELK-912 into a double-gangbox outfitted with one outlet. All of the 120VAC is contained within the box and the low-voltage pair (green/yellow) runs back to the M1.

Alternately, you can use a single gang box and house the relay elsewhere. However, this arrangement forces you to run the Hot wire out of the gangbox and on to the relay and that, according to my personal guide to sane household wiring, is just plain evil.

 

[politics123]

Standard household outlet is always 15A. There are probably labeling requirements if you are going to run less than 10A. Why not include an in-line fuse to prevent overload.

See the irrigation how-to (http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=8082) for a picture

 

[gatchel]

Some household outlets are 20 Amp.

This is similar to 123's post.

If it were me personally, I would use the Elk relay to send 12 or 24 volts to an external relay capable of the maximum rated load of the circuit. You could use a separate hoffman enclosure with some 12 awg SJ cord and a plug on the end and then mount a single simplex outlet in the enclosure using the relay to break the black or the black and white conductors. Make sure to ground the box and continue the ground thru from plug to outlet.

I am not an electrician...I don't think it is a good practice to put 120v on the OVR if it's even rated for it. This provides a direct path for a surge to get to the elk hardware.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Yes, there are 20 amp receptacles, but you can tell them over the common 15 amp ones as they have a "horizontal" slot in one of the vertical slots.

I don't see anything wrong with the metholology, but I think I would also seek solutions that wouldn't "hardwire" a relay into my house wiring. Maybe other options such as an X-10 outlet or external box as mentioned above?? On non-PLC applications can you possibly switch the low voltage (i.e. after the wall wart) side of the devices?

 

[mustangcoupe]

For your router I would look at switching the (mostlikely) 12 vdc through a elk relay module.... (check the ratings first as I dont know what you are using)

For the 110VAC I would use a contactor (simular to a relay but can take the high load currents but they are larger then relays and may not fit in you quad box. Search around As I read a few posts today about someone doing this for outside lights and recepticals for his power tools.

 

[Spanky]

In my house I use an ELK-912 to control closet lights. When you open the door the light turns on through the M1. If you leave the closet door open for more than 5 minutes the light turns off. The ELK-912 is wired similiar to the above drawing across a light switch.

Note: This will probably not pass your electrical inspector in which you are bringing in low voltage into a high voltage electrical box.

 

[upstatemike]

In my house I use an ELK-912 to control closet lights. When you open the door the light turns on through the M1. If you leave the closet door open for more than 5 minutes the light turns off. The ELK-912 is wired similiar to the above drawing across a light switch.

Note: This will probably not pass your electrical inspector in which you are bringing in low voltage into a high voltage electrical box.

I think you can make it kind of legal if:

1- the insulation of the low voltage wire inside the box containing the relay is rated the same as the insulation on the high voltage load wires. So you would want your 12V trigger wire to have insulation rated at 300V.

2- The low voltage field wiring should connect to a point outside the box, not directly to the relay coil terminals. In other words extend the relay coil terminals to a barrier strip outside the box using some TX pigtails. Then connect your field wiring from the M1 to the barrier strip. This way the low voltage field wire is never inside the box with the high voltage wire and can be connected and disconnected without exposure to dangerous voltages.

If you look at a doorbell transformer you will see a similiar approach where the low voltage connections can be accessed without going into the J-box.

 

[mustangcoupe]

2- The low voltage field wiring should connect to a point outside the box, not directly to the relay coil terminals. In other words extend the relay coil terminals to a barrier strip outside the box using some TX pigtails. Then connect your field wiring from the M1 to the barrier strip. This way the low voltage field wire is never inside the box with the high voltage wire and can be connected and disconnected without exposure to dangerous voltages.

If you look at a doorbell transformer you will see a similiar approach where the low voltage connections can be accessed without going into the J-box.

I dont know but............You will still have the low voltage wireing inside the high voltage jbox, with the doorbell and furnace transformers the high voltage is inside the jbox with the transformer mounted to the cover keeping all highvoltage connections inside the jbox and the low voltage stuff outside the box (which is safe because it is considered low voltage)

 

[upstatemike]

I dont know but............You will still have the low voltage wiring inside the high voltage jbox, with the doorbell and furnace transformers the high voltage is inside the jbox with the transformer mounted to the cover keeping all highvoltage connections inside the jbox and the low voltage stuff outside the box (which is safe because it is considered low voltage)

True but with the pigtail and external barrier strip you don't have the connection to the external low voltage wiring inside of the J-Box. The Pigtail and barrier strip are part of the device "wiring harness" and isolate the high voltage interior area from the low voltage connection point.

 

[gatchel]

In my house I use an ELK-912 to control closet lights. When you open the door the light turns on through the M1. If you leave the closet door open for more than 5 minutes the light turns off. The ELK-912 is wired similiar to the above drawing across a light switch.

Note: This will probably not pass your electrical inspector in which you are bringing in low voltage into a high voltage electrical box.

I think you can make it kind of legal if:

1- the insulation of the low voltage wire inside the box containing the relay is rated the same as the insulation on the high voltage load wires. So you would want your 12V trigger wire to have insulation rated at 300V.

2- The low voltage field wiring should connect to a point outside the box, not directly to the relay coil terminals. In other words extend the relay coil terminals to a barrier strip outside the box using some TX pigtails. Then connect your field wiring from the M1 to the barrier strip. This way the low voltage field wire is never inside the box with the high voltage wire and can be connected and disconnected without exposure to dangerous voltages.

If you look at a doorbell transformer you will see a similiar approach where the low voltage connections can be accessed without going into the J-box.

I think the wire also should be rated for the same temperature for the kind of legal approach.

 

[Madcodger]

Well, I spoke with the guys at AO today, and they talked me out of this approach due to almost-certain code violations. A shame b/c it seems like it should work well, but I want to keep it "proper" in case something should ever happen or I sell the house.

I have some Lightolier switches I pulled out of the house a couple of years ago, and if I could figure out a way to make the Elk talk to them (they'll "speak" ASCII) I could use those wired to an outlet to accomplish this. Otherwise, I may have to use an X10 appliance linc to stay legal.

Boy, that's something... using an old X10 appliance linc to make my new Insteon PLM work properly. I don't think I'm making progress...

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas, folks.

Joe

 

[SnyperBob]

We don't need no water, let the motherf*r burn.

Actually, I really like your idea. I think I may implement something like this, and just undo it when I move. Very simple solution to a common problem (resetting those two devices)

 

[123]

...
I think I may implement something like this, and just undo it when I move. Very simple solution to a common problem (resetting those two devices)
...

I suspect Cocooners have concocted electrical abominations far worse than what has been described so far ...

My suggestion to enclose the relay in a double-gang box is hardly original ... a few seconds with Google uncovered the following gizmo:
http://www.atariarchives.org/ccc/chapter12.php

Gatchel's suggestion to make a relay-controlled power-bar is a good compromise. Arguably, the home-brew power-bar is not a permanent part of your home's electrical system. When the time comes, you just unplug it and your home's electrical wiring is unblemished. Carlon makes PVC J-boxes that can double as enclosures for the power-bar.

Or you can use an X10 appliance module ...