What is a "True Day/Night" camera?

I have three types outside with IR LED's. The two pictured and a bullet style with LED's. The "night" range of the all enclosed in glass dome camera gave me the longest range; I could light up a large area of the house (giving it a ghost appearance) but then there was still much reflection from the glass dome itself. The smaller example worked better at night somewhat without the range but after a couple of years the lens detached itself a bit from the glass allowing the LED's to reflect back in.

I have currently disabled the LED's on the newest outdoor (all glass - all plastic) dome as I like the picture at night. With the night motion sensors turning on all exterior lighting after hours I get a decent view. The street lighting in the front of the house / with the motion sensor lighting works well for the front of the house cams. (two are B&W and two are color (with IR LEDs) in the front and same in the back of the house)

Personally I would say a "true" night day camera would work well without the LED's.

Min. illumination of [email protected] (Color), [email protected] (B/W), [email protected] (Color sens-up)
Click to expand...

So like low lux sensitivity, as large of an aperature that you can get (F stop) and megapixel quality most likely would work the best.
If you are illuminating about 10-15 feet of area in total darkness then the LED's do OK (my test Foscam PT with IRs) does OK in the garage but only lights up to the second vehicle in total darkness. The Panasonic IP doesn't have LED's and the pictures is minimal at no light / little light.

Many many years ago took a few photography classes as electives - set up the whole dark room scenario developing my own film and bought an enlarger to print my pictures. One of my "projects" was what kind of pictures could I take at night. The goal kind of worked with slow shutter, large F stop and very fast film (B&W ISO 3200) with as little light as possible. Manual Nikons / Canons and a variety of lens. I can kind of emulate the same scenario today with my digital camera having the same features (control over shutter speed, F stop and ISO) - but I have to shut off the autofocus piece. It uses a very bright IR light to set the focus in a virtual box in the middle of the view of the camera.
 
WayneW said:
Can somebody explain what a "true day/night camera" is and what relevant specs to look for to very it's "truth". I am confused when I see cameras that claim to be "true day/night", but they also have IR LEDS. I was under the impression that "true day/night" cameras didn't NEED IRs?

examples that confuse me:
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/s.nl/it.A/id.24903/.f
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product....3#specification
Click to expand...
"True day/night" (TDN) cameras can have self-contained IR illuminators or not. What distinguishes a TDN is the presence of an IR cut filter. CCD sensors are sensitive to both IR radiation and visible light radiation. It is the IR radiation that gives you "night vision". IR radiation is more plentiful in most low visible light situations. Of course, by adding IR illuminators, this adds to the IR radiation that is being seen by the camera.

So being able to "see " in IR radiation greatly helps the night vision. However, seeing the IR radiation at the same time when there is plenty of visible light tends to wash out the picture. To improve picture quality during the day, the IR cut filter moves in front of the sensor, blocking the IR radiation and allowing only the visible light to pass.

TDN cameras must have a mechanical mechanism of some type that moves the IR cut filter infront of the sensor during the day, while retracting it at night.
 
Thanks Sandpiper. I know many of us here have had bad experiences with cameras with built-in IR, but (at least in my case) that my be partially to blame on the overall cheapness of the camera. Would a quality TDN camera have the same ghost issues with IR LEDs? Is there a guideline for when a plain TDN is the right choice and when an IR LED TDN is the right choice? I am guessing maybe I would want the IR LEDs for a camera in the garage (short range) but would not need/want the IR LEDs for an exterior camera (longer range)?
 
Was just to make me think/wonder - but this doesn't sound like the IR cut filter... It sounds like if there is enough visible 'normal' light then IR should not be used, but if there is not enough light then IR is beneficial. Is there a camera that can sense normal ambient light and if there is enough, shit off IR LEDs and if there is not enough ambient light for a good picture then turn on the IR LEDs? I always heard also for the reasons stated earlier that IR IN the camera was not great so you should use a regular non IR camera with separate IR pods if you need them. I need to go down this path myself soon so I'm trying to learn from all those walking before me.
 
I installed a Foscam IP PT with IR's in the garage (inexpensive IP PT Cam). I mounted it on the ceiling (9') pointed towards the vehicles. The 10 LED's only illuminate to the second vehicle and I get some IR reflections from the furthest vehicle (20 something feet away). If I just utilize the shining under the garage cabinet ambient lighting (disconnecting the IR LEDs) I see more of the garage (and vehicles). I was going to try a quickie test purchasing an IR LED illuminator and putting it high on one wall in the middle of the garage to see how well it lights up for the Foscam. The other IP cam I have (Panasonic IP PT) doesn't have LED's and does poorly with a little bit of light.

I've read that the new firmware on the newer Foscams allow you to shut off the illuminating IR's. Previous to this the cameras were "modified" with software controllable switches to shut off the LEDs.

Here is what I see with the Foscam IR's in the garage. (no other light) and another picture with the overhead garage lights on. I am replacing the Foscam lens though with a fisheye (160 degrees) lens.
 
WayneW said:
Thanks Sandpiper. I know many of us here have had bad experiences with cameras with built-in IR, but (at least in my case) that my be partially to blame on the overall cheapness of the camera. Would a quality TDN camera have the same ghost issues with IR LEDs? Is there a guideline for when a plain TDN is the right choice and when an IR LED TDN is the right choice? I am guessing maybe I would want the IR LEDs for a camera in the garage (short range) but would not need/want the IR LEDs for an exterior camera (longer range)?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure exactly what you mean about the ghost issue....are you talking about the motion blur where a moving object appears translucent or are you talking about how a persons face appears white with bright glowing eyes under IR illumination? I can explain both of these.

To answer your other questions...let me try this way....A day/night camera is just like your eyes except that a camera can see using IR light in addition to visible light. So any camera will need some amount of light to see. A day/night camera can use IR illumination to see when the visible light is below what we can see. Inside a garage at night in the dark there will be practically no light, visible or IR, so there you will need to provide IR illumination. This can be done with the built in IR illuminators some cameras have or by seperate IR illuminators.

Outside is a different story. There will be some ambient IR illumination out there that the camera can see without provided IR illumination. But even a night vision camera has it limits. The military have cameras when can go way on down in IR illumination but they are too expensive for most homeowners. You can find camera in the $200 range that can go down to .005 LUX of illumination. A camera like this without IR illumination, on the darkest nights, will still go blind.

So now we come to the IR illumination problem. Think of the illuminators as a an IR flashlight or floodlight. As with any flashlight the farther away an object if interst is from the lights, the darker it appears. Objects up close are over-flooded with light and become washed out in the image. Most of the time, IR illumination works well in situations where you have a limited area of interest, such as a back yard. Beyond that, it takes more powerful illuminators to be able to see anything. You can't light up the world with a single illuminator. In this case it is best to try to use the ambient light, and that is when you need a very good night vision camera.
 
WayneW,

I would say that the "Speco" like analogue camera I have outside is a true low light night/day camera (and previous EverFocus analogue camera). Its a nice camera for up close (less than 20 feet) but not 75 feet night time use.

The Optex combo BW cameras do well with low light outside and do not have IR Illuminators. They see nothing though with no light.
 
pete_c said:
I would say that the "Speco" like analogue camera I have outside is a true low light night/day camera (and previous EverFocus analogue camera). Its a nice camera for up close (less than 20 feet) but not 75 feet night time use.
Click to expand...
Unless the specs state that it is "true day/night" or states that it has an "IR cut filter" I would not assume it is a "true day/night".

From what I understand, distance has little to do with whether a camera is "true day/night" as IR light can travel a great distance to reach the camera sensor. HOWEVER, IR ILLUMINATORS DO HAVE DISTANCE LIMITS, just like a flashlight can only shine so far.
 
Yes, the Speco doesn't state "true day/night" on its specifications. The "anti-IR-reflective cover" really didn't work so I disconnected the IR illuminators.
The IR illuminators though did light up my whole house from about 60-70 feet with no other light giving it a ghost like appearance. It was a bit difficult to adjust using my laptop IP connection and would have been easier to
utilize the video out (think there was an aux out) to small monitor.

CCD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1/3†SONY Super-HAD* CCD
Resolution . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .420 Lines
Lens . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .VL-650IR: 3.6mm board lens
VL-650IRVF: 4-9mm vari-focal auto iris lens
Min. Illumination . . . . . . . . . . . . .0 Lux (20M range) with LED on, 0.5 Lux with LED off
Number of Pixels . . . . . . . . . . . . .510 H x 492 V
Cell size . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9.6μm H x 7.5μm V
TV Type . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .NTSC
Sync Type . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Internal
Scanning System . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2:1 Interlace
Video Output . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.0 Vp-p (sync negative) into 75 ohms
Video Test Output . . . . . . . . . . . .Cable included
Gamma Characteristic . . . . . . . . . .y=0.45 typ.
S/N Ratio . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .48dB or more (AGC off)
Gain Control . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Automatic
Electronic Shutter . . . . . . . . . . . . .1/60 Sec to 1/100,000 Sec
AGC . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .ON/OFF
BLC . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .ON/OFF
Flickerless . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .ON/OFF
Mirror . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .ON/OFF
Test Illuminance Area . . . . . . . . . .Average test illuminance by front view
Power Supply . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Regulated 12V DC power supply included
Consumption Current . . . . . . . . . .Max. 360mA
Reverse Polarity Protection . . . . . . .YES
Operating Temperature . . . . . . . . .-20ËšF to 120ËšF
Accessories Available . . . . . . . . . . .650WMT -Wall Mount 650 CMT -Ceiling Mount
650TBMT -Junction Box
Dimensions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6†Dia. x 3.75†H
Click to expand...

2.03 COLOR/BW CCD CAMERA SPECIFICATIONS
A. Day/Night Operation: Built-In 22 IR LEDs, internal baffles & CDS sensor for day/night operation
B. Imaging Device: 1/3-inch interline transfer color Sony Super HAD* CCD
C. Lens: 3.6mm lens
D. Lens/Varifocal Model: 4-9mm auto iris varifocal lens
E. Special Shielding: Eliminates IR reflections
F. Scanning System
a. NTSC: 525 lines, 60Hz, 2:1 interlace
G. Picture Elements
a. NTSC: 510 (H) x 492 (V)
H. Sensing Area: 8 mm diagonal
I. Horizontal Resolution: Color: 420 TV lines
J. Auto White Balance: Automatic
K. Auto White Balance Range: 2,500° to 9,500°K
Click to expand...

The Everfocus EHD650 had similiar specifications but no IR illumination. Sensativity at .08 Lux. Much more difficult to adjust outside. Power hog.

Pickup Device 1/3†Pixim Digital Pixel System
Pixel Element 720 × 540 (Digital)
Horizontal Resolution 480 TVL (Analog)
Sensitivity 0.08 Lux / F=1.2 (DSS x 36)
Slow Shutter Up to 32x (2, 4, 8, 16, 32)
S/N Ratio Over 48dB
Auto Exposure Yes
Auto White Balance Yes, 2500K ~9500K (Adjustable)
Backlight Comp. Yes
Auto Iris Yes
Video Output BNC, 1.0Vp-p / 75 ohm
Auto Gain Control Yes (max. 38dB)
Wide Dynamic Range 95dB typical, 120dB max
Sync. Mode Line Lock/Internal Sync.
Image Flip Yes (Horizontal Reverse)
On Screen Display Yes
Lens f=2.9~10mm
Power Source 24VAC
Operating Temperature -40°C ~ 50°C / -40°F ~ 122°F
(20% ~ 80% Humidity)
Power Consumption 4.5W max. (w/out heater)
15W max. (w/heater)
Dimension (W x H x D) 130 x 98.9 x 130 mm / 5.1†x 3.9†x 5.1â€
Click to expand...

The most expensive (older though) Optex (Wondertrack) is a bit light.

Pick-up Method 1/3" CCD B/W
Video Signal 1.0 Vp-p / 75Ω± 10%
Scanning Method 2:1 Interlaced
Resolution 380 TV lines (center)
Focal Length 6.0a 3.6a 4.0a 3.0a
CCD Camera
Angle of View (horizontal X vertical) 46°× 34° 72°× 57° 48°× 36° 65°× 48°
unit
Number of Effective Pixels PAL/CCIR : Approx 300,000 pixels, NTSC/EIA : Approx 250,000 pixels
Minimum Illumination 0.5lx
Signal System CCIR/EIA PAL/NTSC
Synchronization System Internal synchronization
Click to expand...
 
FYI, though ‘true day & night’ may mean the omission of an IR Lens, it’s not the only low light technology out there. Also, to be honest, I’ve done some research into ‘day/night’ cameras and have yet to found ANY that meet my requirements. In the words of my liege King Author, “You Seek the Grail!â€

Cameras I’ve tested include:

  • Digital Watchdog’s With “Star-Light†Technology Cameras (both CMOS and CCD)
  • Hawk-I “Quantum Light Series†Camera
  • Speco “Intensifier†Camera
These cameras were between $300 - $350 and I returned them all except the Speco one. Not that the Speco was that great, but it is the lesser of the other evils.

The main problem I’ve found is the lack of facial recognition in low light (not complete ‘dark’ as I have ample outdoor lighting). I’m sure this post will proceed with pics of people’s faces taken at low light with other cameras and how you can recognize them and that’s fine. I’m just saying in my situation (lighting and distance) nothing I’ve found will work for me.

What is truly sad is the main problem seems to be with the firmware of the cameras. One of the features most cameras have is a good adjustable noise reduction capability. The problem is you can not get this ONE setting to work with both day and night time situations. This also goes for the dynamic gain adjustments as well.

I have adjusted, twiddled, fiddled, etc… with these cameras more than I would like to talk about (so much that my legs would be tired from standing on a ladder) and could never get the overall day and night performance I would want.

If these companies would just create the capability of TWO settings for noise and gain for BOTH day and night, a possible winner may emerge from this crop.

I would like to investigate cameras into the $600 range, but have yet to do so. I also did see a camera at a few CES shows back that showed potential, but they would only sell it via ONE vendor, and it was IP only, so I did not peruse its investigation.
 
BSR, have you looked at the CNB "Monalisa" cameras? they are highly regarded as a true day night and low cost cameras by the guys at the CCTV forum
 
One of my outdoor cameras is a day/night, and IQEye 752. It has a cut filter and I don't use any IR (attracts too many bugs in SW FL). Only lighting is from two coach lights on the garage at 50% dim level. Here is a day and a night picture (last night and this morning).

Kevin
 

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