What is wrong with CQC?

[pete_c]

Personally here have used Homeseer now since the late 1990's.  I did meet Rich in the early 2000's and the company was small back then as it is today.
 
Homeseer Mark that visits here on the forum.  I have spoken to him a few times over the last few years. 
 
The company has evolved in an attempt to keep up the software automation with what is in place today.
 
Really too automation has changed much faster in just the last 2-3 years versus the last 10 years almost at a logarithmic explosion of automation for the masses.
 
I know intercompany communications can be difficult in those efforts of being unique et al...but maybe you Dean can have a chat with Rich and or Mark from Homeseer.  They are both nice folks and personable.

 

[Waynedb]

 
I was in Home Depot a few days ago, and I have been watching their "Home Automation" section. It started in the front of the store, and now its in the back on clearance. So I bought a Link Hub and two Zigbee lightbulbs for under $20. 

I imagine these home automation for the masses type products sell much better online, I don't see a lot of younger people going to Home Depot for HA stuff when they can order it through Amazon right on their phone or tablet, Amazon now has their dash ordering buttons for buying common household items, I can see in the future where your phone app will say "your automated light is no longer responding, press here to have a replacement sent out right away", the future is changing fast.

 

[pete_c]

It's been a few years now here and personally got an indirect inside view of the organizanal structure of one big box store.
 
It was a mismash of structure with a lot of folks doing a lot of stuff but the left hand didn't know what the right hand did.  Many silos of substructures with no communications what so ever.  
 
IE: enter new automation for the masses and you are seeing a splat of unknown guidance purely from the companies trying to get their feet in the doors of these places.

 

[picta]

My advice for Dean, and really any company making a product for some time, is to maybe stand back and reevaluate the direction that you are heading. CQC has been around a long time, and there is no question the world, and home automation have changed a fair bit during that time.  Many times a product will start from a vision, and years and years go by while this vision is realized, but also during that time the market, technology, and everything changes.  Maybe now is a great time to stop, sit down, do some research, look at the world, and decide if the direction CQC is headed is still the direction that it should be headed.
 
I stated that I used CQC for many years, and while not ideal in some ways, it still was better than anything out there. But then, over time, Dean's vision went off in one direction, while I was going in another. Dean worked on elaborate displays for PC and RIVA clients while I was more interested in reliable real-time control, and remote web-based access.  Some very important points for me, like supporting all of Leviton/Omni features and getting UPB rock solid, and maybe exploring new connection technologies like Zigbee were never addressed. I never used PC clients or RIVA so those things weren't important to me. I was using text-to-speech and other means to communicate with the system.
 
I was in Home Depot a few days ago, and I have been watching their "Home Automation" section. It started in the front of the store, and now its in the back on clearance. So I bought a Link Hub and two Zigbee lightbulbs for under $20.  I didn't plan to use the hub, and I was going to see if the Zigbee light bulbs would work with the rest of my system. They did. Anyway, I starting reading about it and this hub has Zigbee, Z-wave, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi and actually a few more wireless technologies. A free app on the phone controls it all without any monthly fees, and I see it even has IFTTT support. So wait, so like for $10 i have a full home automation system, with a phone app. that can do a whole bunch and be up and running in about 10 minutes.  I'm NOT saying this is the future, or that it is for me, but it IS a radial change, my point being, the world of Home Automation HAS CHANGED radically in the last 10 years. I no longer need a PC to do a whole lot of stuff cheaply. 
 
So again, maybe now is time to look how the world of home automation has changed, and maybe more important, take some guesses where it will be in 10 years, and from there, craft how CQC might need to change so that it is still relevant. Yes, change is always scary, but also very important to embrace. You can certainly choose to ignore change, but do so at your own risk. 

 
I don't think the world of REAL home automation has changed that much, I see the major difference to be the introduction of cheap tablets for remote control. The Link and Wink type of controllers are really just toys, and very buggy toys. You cannot have a large number of devices in such systems, so you'll not really be automating your home, but rather just a few things in it. The true automation requires a lot of sensors and controllable devices that work quitely in the background to manage rules AUTOMATICALLY and not via pushing an APP on your phone. Since the logic of these controllers is running in the cloud, you'll also get a huge latency in status updates, just read the reviews on amazon, or try it yourself to operate a lock for example. It is going to be a looong way for the new "home automation" to reach the quality and features of the "old" automation, not to metion the security challenges that such devices are subject to.

 

[jkmonroe]

I don't think the world of REAL home automation has changed that much, I see the major difference to be the introduction of cheap tablets for remote control. The Link and Wink type of controllers are really just toys, and very buggy toys. You cannot have a large number of devices in such systems, so you'll not really be automating your home, but rather just a few things in it. The true automation requires a lot of sensors and controllable devices that work quitely in the background to manage rules AUTOMATICALLY and not via pushing an APP on your phone. Since the logic of these controllers is running in the cloud, you'll also get a huge latency in status updates, just read the reviews on amazon, or try it yourself to operate a lock for example. It is going to be a looong way for the new "home automation" to reach the quality and features of the "old" automation, not to metion the security challenges that such devices are subject to.

 
I think you just proved the point.
 
This is change, but you (we) are all stuck in the world that what we all do is *real* and everything else is just a bunch of toys. I say it over and over, the folks on this board are the outliers, while most everyone else wants a Wink Hub, 2 GE Link bulbs, and an iPhone app.  They are perfectly content with a single closure to trigger a light in the closet (total cost using Wink for that Scenario, $35), or simple logic to lock the door at night.
 
We are an orange in a bushel of apples.

 

[ano]

Hmmm So walking into a Home Depot and seeing an entire section of hubs, wireless locks, wireless thermostats, and Zigbee, Z-Wave and Wi-Fi outlets, switches, and LED light bulbs is not a CHANGE?  The use of smartphones and tablets is not a change?  Even the way young people approach technology is not a change?  Hmmm... I'm not so sure about that.  How about the sophistication of voice recognition?  Hasn't changed at all in these last years?  If you beleive all that, then let me guess that Marketing and market research is not your strong point. 
 
We all know that home automation has never really appealed to the masses.  I'm not sure if hubs have changed this, but what HAS changed is the availability of such options.  The availablility of tablets and smartphones HAS changed how people look at home automation, if you acknowledge this or not. 
 
But lets step back a moment. We are talking about CQC users here, not the general public.  Other than the DIY crowd, which Dean has said is not a high-profit target market, my guess is that Dean's target market is people who have $2M+ houses, and employ and installer to make it all work.  Just by the nature and cost of home automation, I would be very surprised if the sub-$1M market is into paying for systems like this.  So the question is, has what these people want for their home automation system changed in the last few years?  Of course it has. Their idea of automation may not be a Wink hub but they certainly want to control and monitor everything with their phone. And they may not want a Windows PC sitting in their closet. I could go on, but you get the idea. Things HAVE changed for everyone. No doubt even installers are looking for solutions which are quicker to set up at cheaper costs.

 

[jdk972003]

Well said Ano.

 

[NeverDie]

Probably similar to Crestron's markets:
http://www.crestron.com/markets/

 

[Deane Johnson]

Frequently, when the market changes for a particular category of anything, the old heavy duty players, such as CQC is in this category, find it so difficult to adjust to the new world that they end up not changing and often it's a newcomer who has a clean slate that picks up the ball and runs with it.  I'm only using CQC here as a hypothetical example.
 
Remember when Blackberry was the rage.
 
While I don't personally care for Apple's approach to things, they have set the flavor for the way electronics have to work with the consumer in the future, and the future is now.

 

[Dean Roddey]

They won't care what it is sitting in the closet, any more than they would care if it's a Crestron processor or a C4 box (a Linux machine, which they'd probably know even less about than Windows.) It's irrelevant, because they won't install it or maintain it. The only thing that matters in those scenarios is what lines are carried by the installer they choose. In very few cases are any DIY type hubs likely to be on the list for pro installs, other than as an ancillary bit of gear controlled by the automation system (e.g. Hue perhaps.) And the pro installer is likely be involved in homes a lot less expensive than $2M.

 

[picta]

Hmmm So walking into a Home Depot and seeing an entire section of hubs, wireless locks, wireless thermostats, and Zigbee, Z-Wave and Wi-Fi outlets, switches, and LED light bulbs is not a CHANGE?  The use of smartphones and tablets is not a change?  Even the way young people approach technology is not a change?  Hmmm... I'm not so sure about that.  How about the sophistication of voice recognition?  Hasn't changed at all in these last years?  If you beleive all that, then let me guess that Marketing and market research is not your strong point. 

 
Funny, just walked in Home Depot yesterday and tried to find the automation section, asked a worker there where is the Wink stuff, and he said "It has been discontinued". The other worker said: "We stll have some leftovers in the back", and yes there they were, way in the back, some random devices left over. But in the front of the store there was a 3D printer!
 
I am speaking form experience, I have tried most of these cloud based HA products, and found them to be unusable for anything but time waste. My point is that while the market for mass home automation is starting to gain marketing speed, it is far from being developed for real utilization. So if you want to automate your house now for the next few years, there is nothing available yet other than the old proven tech.
 
However, the new stuff for general public is coming at some point. It will most likely be driven by big players, like Apple and Amazon, who may step into the game:
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-may-be-pitting-itself-against-amazon-for-the-center-of-the-smart-home-2015-4. But it will take time (a loong time), so for now I still recommend HAI and Elk to friends who wish to do automation in their homes.

 

[NeverDie]

Funny, just walked in Home Depot yesterday and tried to find the automation section, asked a worker there where is the Wink stuff, and he said "It has been discontinued". The other worker said: "We stll have some leftovers in the back", and yes there they were, way in the back, some random devices left over. But in the front of the store there was a 3D printer!
 
I am speaking form experience, I have tried most of these cloud based HA products, and found them to be unusable for anything but time waste. My point is that while the market for mass home automation is starting to gain marketing speed, it is far from being developed for real utilization. So if you want to automate your house now for the next few years, there is nothing available yet other than the old proven tech.
 
However, the new stuff for general public is coming at some point. It will most likely be driven by big players, like Apple and Amazon, who may step into the game:
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-may-be-pitting-itself-against-amazon-for-the-center-of-the-smart-home-2015-4. But it will take time (a loong time), so for now I still recommend HAI and Elk to friends who wish to do automation in their homes.

Wow, so it was all just a flash in the pan?
 
I think the problem with most home automation gear is that, from the get-go, it is "consumer grade."  Manufacturers interpret that to mean "low quality," and so they build and sell garbage.  In other industries, the "good stuff" first gets developed for more expensive commercial use and then over time finds its way down into lower priced consumer products.  For whatever reason, when it comes to home automation, that mostly doesn't seem to be happening.

 

[Deane Johnson]

I wonder what the attitude of the professional installer is going to be.  Are they going to want to embrace the newer "plug and play" approach, or are they still going to cling to the old "days to program" concept.

 

[ano]

Funny, just walked in Home Depot yesterday and tried to find the automation section, asked a worker there where is the Wink stuff, and he said "It has been discontinued". The other worker said: "We stll have some leftovers in the back", and yes there they were, way in the back, some random devices left over. But in the front of the store there was a 3D printer!

From the first day I saw all that stuff in Lowes and Home Depot, I said, what in the world were they thinking?  I'm sure the hub manufacturers convinced these stores to carry this stuff, and maybe some of their customers have even probably been requesting it, so i give them credit for trying. But here is the big problem, even for me with probably lots more home automation experience than the average Lowes or Home depot customer, is I had no idea what this stuff did.  I saw things like a Zigbee Cree LED lightbulb. Am I supposed to magically know that I need to buy a hub, then get a smartphone application, then I can control the bulb with the phone?  Nobody was explaining any of this stuff, so of course it just sits there, untouched.  I even had no idea how all it worked until one day I researched it. Most people won't bother doing that.  But i said to myself, this stuff will be on clearance soon, so I might find some good buys.
 
By the way, I don't think this stuff has been discontinued yet, but its close.
 

I wonder what the attitude of the professional installer is going to be.  Are they going to want to embrace the newer "plug and play" approach, or are they still going to cling to the old "days to program" concept.

The hubs and stuff like this is never going to replace or even threaten the business of professional installers, BUT, and this is a big BUT, the availability of this stuff does up-the-ante in that those paying an installer big bucks are going to want an automated house that does a whole lot more than just controlling their devices with their phone, but that is part of that.  Remember, many people with very expensive homes really just want to show it off more than really use it.  They don't want to pay $50K to an installer so they can control their lights from an iPhone, when they know Joe DIY can do the same thing in their trailer for about $50.
 
Also, I would think that all home automation installers would be always on the prowl for ways to work quicker, or to do it cheaper.  
 
Many years ago when I switched to UPB to X-10, Simply Automated had this idea to expand their market. Instead of just selling $75 UPB switches to installers, they would sell $30 UPB switches to consumers in Frys Electronics. Turns out they had the same problem as Home depot or Lowes, nobody except the installers understood the technology.  So the stuff sat there gathering dust, and eventually Fry's discounted it to clear their shelves.  Then installers realized that the cheap half-priced UPB switches were almost the same switches SA was charging them $75 for. For a few months it was a feeding frenzy, and installers would buy the Frys $15 UPB switches instead of the ones the resellers were selling. The resellers got very angry at Simply Automated for doing what they did, but the installers got some great deals. I bought a bunch of these DIY UPB switches as well.  It probably saved me $1000 on my house.  
 
So while the home automation installer business is different than the DIY business, neither of them work in a vacuum, and they CAN affect each other, sometimes in ways not everyone can predict.

 

[ano]

Here is one for the "Why Won't They Ever learn" folder.
 
The year is 2016, about 6 months after the release of Luna, the home automation smarthub that is also a mattress cover. http://lunasleep.com/ (Folks you can't make these things up.)
The location, the back of your nearest Bed Bath and Beyond. A table sits stacked high with Luna mattress covers, and a sign in front reads "Clearance $10.00 each while supplies last."
Wow, I can see the future.