What lighting system to use with ELK M1G?

[benze]

Hi,

I've been shopping around for an alarm system for my house, and have been attracted by the M1G with eveyrthing it seems that it can do. I'm completely new to the HA world, so I've been trying to read up on the different technologies I can use for lighting controls. My house is already wired, and I'm only looking for something rather simple to start with; a few dimmable controlled lights here and there so the M1G can turn on and off lights while we are away to make the house look lived in. Maybe once I get that working, I'll want to work on creating different scenes, but for now, I figured I would start easy. The only other thing I'm interested in, is a controllable thermostat for heat pump, furnace and humidity.

I'm reading stuff on X10, UPB, and a bunch of other things, but quite frankly, I'm lost. What systems interact best with the M1G? Which are the easiest to install and configure? I would rather not run any wiring, if I can avoid it - the majority of my light swtiches all have a neutral in them.

Can anyone point me in the right direction(s) please? Cost is definitely a factor; as it is, the M1G is probably going to run a few hundred more than a simple alarm panel.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Eric

 

[icellama21]

A few ideas that are retrofit and some comments that I believe summarize the technologies.

1) Insteon

Cheap, around $40 a switch. Mainly a powerline technology, uses wireless to bridge phases, but less susceptible to interference than others. Quality of the products is a big issue here. See related forums. Can be a headache due to failures, sometimes works fine. Future may be better.

2) UPB

Powerline technology that is supported by multiple companies and been around a while. Semi-professional grade, around $70 a switch. Some people have had nasty noise issues on the powerline, but generally pretty reliable and good quality.

3) Zwave

Leviton's vizia is the biggest player here, but others exist too. A wireless, mesh networking technology. Around $60 for a basic switch. My instinct is that this is going to grow fast due to price, reliability and quality. None of the powerline issues of UPB or quality issues of Insteon, at least not yet.

4) RadioRA

Been around for a while, very professional, very reliable, rock solid quality. Lutron's basic home-user/DIY product. You pay for it, around $120+ a switch plus other stuff needed. Limited to 32 loads(for reasonable performance, 64 possible) and doesn't send dimming status(issue for some).

5) X10

Completely hobbyist product. 1960s technology, very unreliable powerline technology. Subject to interference and 60-70% reliability. You CAN make this work well, but it is a lot of tinkering and only for the serious budget-hound or hobbyist. Around $10 a load.

6) Creston, Homeworks RF, Vantage

These guys offer some RF/wireless technologies, but are top end, integrator products. No DIY unless you find a willing dealing to help you. Generally specialize in hardwired products anyway, good for new construction if you have the money.

7) Zigbee

Relatively new wirelss mesh protocol. Can also be used well for carrying data. Check out centralite's jetstream. Around $100 a switch. Has received some good reviews and is pretty reliable so far. Centralite has a solid rep in lighting and this may end up being the most professional system that is DIY accessible.

 

[Herdfan]

A few ideas that are retrofit and some comments that I believe summarize the technologies.

1) Insteon

Cheap, around $40 a switch. Mainly a powerline technology, uses wireless to bridge phases, but less susceptible to interference than others. Quality of the products is a big issue here. See related forums. Can be a headache due to failures, sometimes works fine. Future may be better.

Nooooooo!

Read this: http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=12274

 

[Steve]

Welcome to CocoonTech Eric.

For the stat you have your choice pretty much of RCS, HAI and AprilAire. My personal favorite at this point in time is HAI's new RC1000/2000. You will need the 2000 if you want humidity as mentioned. RCS TR-40 would be my second choice and lastly AprilAire. That's just my preference, they will all work well and are good quality. I don't like the AprilAire for the M1 because you need to translate RS485 to 232 and hence need more components.

As far as lighting, icellama21 summed it up pretty well but I am going to add a few comments based on his post.

1. Agree. Now is a very bad time to invest in Insteon. Too much controversy over quality and future. Perhaps will be a good system in the future.

2. I don't agree at all with 'semi-professional' grade. In fact UPB is the preferred choice by professional installers and is the best of the powerline based systems. I am one of those that have issues with noise, but there are ways to deal with it, but it can be frustrating. But it is still much more robust than x10.

3. I agree Zwave has none of the powerline issues that UPB does, because its not powerline based! It's a wireless RF based protocol. But, it is susceptible to wireless RF interference just like a powerline protocol is susceptible to powerline noise. It all depends on your house and the environment - either powerline or wireless may work or maybe one is better than the other. It's strictly a house/location based thing in the real world.

4. Very similar to Vizia RF+, they are both wireless systems.

5. While x10 may work and it is cheap, it is the most 'unreliable' of the powerline systems. The x10.com stuff is pretty crappy stuff, but pro grade x10 switches like by Lightolier do exist. Some people are very happy with their x10 systems. If you have little noise and are willing to identify and correct signal suckers and noise generators it could be an option, but I much prefer UPB.

6. Agreed, not for DIY on budget.

7. I really wanted to fall in love with Jetstream, but I really dislike their 1 button switch. It only works properly if you press the top part of the rocker. The 'problem' with most wireless stuff whether zwave, zigbee or other is the switches are toggles, not true rockers. That may work for some people, but a pretty large percentage still prefer a true rocker.

You probably just need to figure what you need and try something you think would work. Not all the systems have complete product lines either. So I would do some research and look at what you need and your budget and narrow it down to a few. Then you will probably want to get a sample of the switches and I'm sure once you touch them you will know what works best for you.

 

[Spanky]

There is another lighting system starting to take hold in the US called Clipsal C-Bus. (not to be confused with the old CBus) This system is owned by Schneider Electric, which owns Square D Electric. Clipsal owns about 70% of the Australian lighting market.

Clipsal has slowing been moving into the US lighting market over the last few years. This system is not just a lighting control system, it is an extremely robust and strong automation system also. It can be scaled from a home to stadium lighting control and is installed in some of the worlds largest buildings and stadiums. The unique feature of Clipsal is that there is not a central control processor. All the processing is distributed throughout the network.

Elk will be showing a Clipsal interface for the M1 at the EHX show at Orlando in March. I will be there!

 

[nonumnos]

Elk will be showing a Clipsal interface for the M1 at the EHX show at Orlando in March. I will be there!

That's it, Spanky! I am going to have to stalk every post of yours! *grin* Each time you post I see little nuggets of what Elk might have up their sleeve. Looks like I have another item for my HA todo list: research Clipsal.

 

[IVB]

Elk will be showing a Clipsal interface for the M1 at the EHX show at Orlando in March. I will be there!

Man, you're about to make tons of CQC'ers ecstatic.

 

[FrankMc]

Hi Guys

Heres a link to my CBUS retrofit install....The install is a few years old now so the software is the old version 2..the current software is called "Toolkit".....
Since the installation of my CBUS lighting i have also added a CBUS Audio Matrix switcher....

http://www.hobby.armaghelectrical.com.au/page38.html

HTH
Frank

 

[benze]

THanks for all the feedback guys. I've been doing a lot of reading and researching, and seem to be tending towards the side of UPB. From what I can find out about it, it seems like a very reliable and "easy" protocol to get working right, the first time. Which is always a welcome thing for a newbie. However, I am interested in finding more out about c_bus; I just can't seem to find a whole lot on the web about it... Can anyone point me in the right direction where I can find more info/specs out about this?

I am still quite confused, however, about how one integrates any HA with an Elk. If I go with UPB products, do I need a special controller to interconnect with the Elk? Do I need to factor in the cost of a PIM and a serial port module for the M1 to get the Elk to talk to the UPB system? Or do I need anything else? I know people seem to be raving about the UDI ISY-26 for the insteon products, and that UDI seems to be planning one for a UPB system. Does one still need that if I have an Elk, or is that just duplicating the things the Elk can do?

Finally, some completely seperate questions about UPB technology. I read people having issues with "delays" in the switches. Is this still an issue when the light is directly controlled to the switch being pressed, or only an issue when I am trying to control lights connected elsewhere in the house with the current switch? Secondly, how does 3-way/4-way work? Do I need the special remote switches as slaves, or can any mechanical switch (2 way or 3way) work as a slave? From what I can tell UPB devices are not cheap; they seem to run about 100$+ / switch here, which makes it an expensive investment / toy. If there is a way I can combine mechanical and UPB devices in the same circuit to cut down on some costs, it would be great.

Thanks for any feedback!

Eric

 

[Steve]

I am still quite confused, however, about how one integrates any HA with an Elk. If I go with UPB products, do I need a special controller to interconnect with the Elk? Do I need to factor in the cost of a PIM and a serial port module for the M1 to get the Elk to talk to the UPB system? Or do I need anything else? I know people seem to be raving about the UDI ISY-26 for the insteon products, and that UDI seems to be planning one for a UPB system. Does one still need that if I have an Elk, or is that just duplicating the things the Elk can do?

You need an XSP with the 'standard' firmware which supports UPB. The XSP connect to a PIM via serial cable. While you can use 1 PIM and put it on pc for UpStart, then back to Elk, its usually best to just get 2 PIMs, dedicate 1 to pc and 1 to Elk. Jury is still out what ISY can do for UPB. Since the M1 can see links and take action you probably won't need an ISY (depending on how fancy the ISY gets).

I read people having issues with "delays" in the switches. Is this still an issue when the light is directly controlled to the switch being pressed, or only an issue when I am trying to control lights connected elsewhere in the house with the current switch?

Delays were a 'perception' thing with some people on earlier switches. With the newer firmware the delay issue is moot. It only affected local load control, its pretty quick remote, almost instant.

Secondly, how does 3-way/4-way work? Do I need the special remote switches as slaves, or can any mechanical switch (2 way or 3way) work as a slave?

You can't use mechanical switches. Well, you can eliminate them from the circuit, but can't use them to control UPB switches. You can use slaves but they are pretty cheesy imho and LEDs don't track well, etc. Alot of people just use regular switches and put them in the 2 or 3 locations they want and configure them to send links to the one connected to the load. A little more expensive this way but works alot nicer.

From what I can tell UPB devices are not cheap; they seem to run about 100$+ / switch here, which makes it an expensive investment / toy. If there is a way I can combine mechanical and UPB devices in the same circuit to cut down on some costs, it would be great.

You can use them on the same 'circuit' but not in the same multiway setting, see above. Each load needs its own switch then for multiway either a slave or another full switch (again see above).

You should be able to get switches cheaper than that. If you have trouble PM me.

 

[TonyStewart]

THanks for all the feedback guys. I've been doing a lot of reading and researching, and seem to be tending towards the side of UPB. From what I can find out about it, it seems like a very reliable and "easy" protocol to get working right, the first time. Which is always a welcome thing for a newbie. However, I am interested in finding more out about c_bus; I just can't seem to find a whole lot on the web about it... Can anyone point me in the right direction where I can find more info/specs out about this?

I am still quite confused, however, about how one integrates any HA with an Elk. If I go with UPB products, do I need a special controller to interconnect with the Elk? Do I need to factor in the cost of a PIM and a serial port module for the M1 to get the Elk to talk to the UPB system? Or do I need anything else? I know people seem to be raving about the UDI ISY-26 for the insteon products, and that UDI seems to be planning one for a UPB system. Does one still need that if I have an Elk, or is that just duplicating the things the Elk can do?

Finally, some completely seperate questions about UPB technology. I read people having issues with "delays" in the switches. Is this still an issue when the light is directly controlled to the switch being pressed, or only an issue when I am trying to control lights connected elsewhere in the house with the current switch? Secondly, how does 3-way/4-way work? Do I need the special remote switches as slaves, or can any mechanical switch (2 way or 3way) work as a slave? From what I can tell UPB devices are not cheap; they seem to run about 100$+ / switch here, which makes it an expensive investment / toy. If there is a way I can combine mechanical and UPB devices in the same circuit to cut down on some costs, it would be great.

Thanks for any feedback!

Eric

Hey eric
Let me add that it's real easy to get lost in the facts in the HA world. So, forgive me if I tell you something you already know, but some basic thoughts may save you a lot of grief if you have never heard them.

It's common for a integrator or a DIY'er to drill into a topic so deeply that they can't see the big picture until it's too late.

To start your research, first draw the block diagram of what you wish to accomplish. In so doing be sure that you see which blocks connect together and in which order. Understand the flow before you dig into the heart of any one block technically.

When you create a flow chart first you will find it easier to create a "bill of materials". Without a bill of materials you may overlook things like scene switches in selected rooms and as such may not have planned for them.

Without an overall scope first, you may find that while you understand how the lighting works, that understanding often comes after it's too late to install the devices, or when it causes you some rework.

Also plan your groupings of lights. For example there are programming advantages to having lights in functional groups. Your block diagram will often illustrate the groupings for you, showing groups like "all lights in the theater" or "all outside lights", etc.

The lines interconnecting the blocks of the diagram are the lighting protocol. Whether UPB, Z-Wave or whatever. These interconnection lines are also valuable planning tools. If you take an arm's length look at each block you should get a feel for distances between functional blocks. As such, picking the right protocol may mean you consider some wired lighting or a mixture of wired and wireless.

In addition the direction of the interconnecting lines are important. Planning for two way lighting does not just mean that the loop has enough integrity to know that the light switch actually did as it was told (turned on or off). It can also mean that when you press a room's light switch to turn the light on locally, an on signal is also sent to the M1 as a input to trigger another event(s). For example: Anyone turning on the light in the wine cellar (the children for example) can also be a trigger to notify dad that someone has entered that room.

Spend some time thinking through which light swithces you will want to use as "occupancy triggers". Turning on a closet light can start a timer to turn that light back off in 10 minutes (in case the kids forget to). There are many examples of two way or occupancy lighting events. Selecting the right lighting technology is a factor of more than just the protocol.

Lastly, understand the difference between "open architecture" and "proprietary architecture". The M1 supports both lighting technologies. The functional difference to you can be very important. Open architecture is lighting that most often can be removed and replaced with standard (non automated) light switches. Proprietary on the other hand often requires a rewiring of the home if you (or the next homeowner) wants to go back to conventional.

Hope this helps.

TS

 

[znelbok]

Elk will be showing a Clipsal interface for the M1 at the EHX show at Orlando in March. I will be there!

Man, you're about to make tons of CQC'ers ecstatic.

Why?

Are you referring to the C-Bus or to the fact that ELK will be at the EHX show?

Mick

 

[benze]

Hey eric
Let me add that it's real easy to get lost in the facts in the HA world. So, forgive me if I tell you something you already know, but some basic thoughts may save you a lot of grief if you have never heard them.

It's common for a integrator or a DIY'er to drill into a topic so deeply that they can't see the big picture until it's too late.

To start your research, first draw the block diagram of what you wish to accomplish. In so doing be sure that you see which blocks connect together and in which order. Understand the flow before you dig into the heart of any one block technically.

Spend some time thinking through which light swithces you will want to use as "occupancy triggers". Turning on a closet light can start a timer to turn that light back off in 10 minutes (in case the kids forget to). There are many examples of two way or occupancy lighting events. Selecting the right lighting technology is a factor of more than just the protocol.

Lastly, understand the difference between "open architecture" and "proprietary architecture". The M1 supports both lighting technologies. The functional difference to you can be very important. Open architecture is lighting that most often can be removed and replaced with standard (non automated) light switches. Proprietary on the other hand often requires a rewiring of the home if you (or the next homeowner) wants to go back to conventional.

Hope this helps.

TS

Hi Tony,

Actually, yes - that does definitely help significantly. Thank you so much for the good advice. Right now, before I can even begin to think about layout/etc and block diagrams, I'm trying to figure out what is do-able, and what is doable for what cost. Had I actually given thought to HA prior to completing my renos, it might be a different story, but at this point, I'm mostly done, and would be retrofitting everything. So I'm trying to get some ideas of what can be done, and what potential costs would be. Had I been able to intermix conventional 3way switches with automated switches, it would definitely make things a lot easier (I have at least 3 or 4 different rooms that have 3way/4way switches in them and would have liked the ability to control them automatically).

The reality is that I have landed on the concept of HA accidentally; I was actually looking for an alarm system when I was suggested to look at the Elk. After doing some research, I liked what I saw, and now am trying to figure out what I can actually get the Elk to do for me. As for figuring out triggers, and notifications, I'm still very much a newbie in that realm and not sure how to think outside the box. Right now, I was just thinking a few simple things; 1) have the Elk able to control lights in some of the rooms when the alarm is on and no one is home to make the house look lived, 2) ability to auto turn on lights when I come home at night and disarm the alarm, or open doors to the outside, etc, 3) control the thermostat (?) based on alarm status (ie: raise/lower set points when no one is here, or when someone is expected soon). I don't think I;m able to see the full picture yet as to what HA can really do for me. I'd love to get more ideas on what I can have it do....

In the meantime, I'm trying to figure out costs, and see if/what could potentially fit into my budget. But at 80 or 100$/upb swtich, I don't know if I can justify close to 700$ just to automate 3 or 4 3-way switch rooms....

If you have any ideas where I could get some more HA ideas from (I've been reading the site a lot), I'd love to hear about it as well.

Thanks again!

Eric

 

[IVB]

Elk will be showing a Clipsal interface for the M1 at the EHX show at Orlando in March. I will be there!

Man, you're about to make tons of CQC'ers ecstatic.

Why?

Are you referring to the C-Bus or to the fact that ELK will be at the EHX show?

Mick

C-Bus. After listening to you/Rohan talk incessantly about it for years, there's more than a few folks who are looking for a high quality but decent priced lighting (and other) system.