Which is the best?

[rocco]

If you buy into the concept that Insteon is using both powerline-carrier and RF, that still does not make it "Dual-mesh". The RF portion is still point-to-point, and no relaying / rebroadcasting occurs in the RF domain. Maybe "half-mesh" would be a better term.

I would contend that the the RF-mesh, as defined in the Insteon whitepaper, does not work. I believe that that is why we don't yet see RF devices. I also believe that is why we are now hearing about "access-points".

 

[Digger]

Even with the "Dual Mesh" there are still inherent problems with the product not functioning in a noisey enviroment. In teh begining SH claimed that the dual mesh would overcome this. In time I guess they realized they had not overcome the problem in its entirety. and they no longer claim to overcome the problems of X-10 that I see.

I am guessing that as you read this you are saying to yourself why dont I buy more rflincs. I guess I could but I really dont want to add one per room. Its costly and they are annoying (the LED's are so bright and for no reason). While they are not working well they make great nightlights for $69 a pair.

I would guess that SH is correct that if I had enough devices they would probably work (I was up to about 12 or so at one time). Some people here have 50 to 100 switches and they work great from what they say. I have a small house (2400 sq feet or so) and only about 30 overall switches at most. I would have to triple the size of my house just to use Insteon maybe.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Just because you don't have a boat or a light bulb handy, please don't conclude that water or electricity doesn't exist.

Tom

I like that quote. Mind if I usurp it someday (imitation is the greatest form of flattery after all)?

 

[Steve]

Just because you don't have a boat or a light bulb handy, please don't try to convince me that water and electricity don't exist.

Yes, they do exist. But for pete's sake PLEASE don't try to mix them!

 

[jlehnert]

You might also notice that they never claim Zigbee-compliance.

You obviously did not attend the dog and pony show they had at EHX 2 years ago. In fairness though, the presentation was put on by marketing types, and marketing types would claim a product cures the common cold if not kept on a tight leash. They're almost as bad as politicians.

If no *standard* standard exists, what technology are the Celestron guys using? Its it their own proprietary??

Bingo

An early call to make is to SmartHome Pro and ask about certification training.

An excellent piece of advice, but take it one further. Almost all manufacturers have some type of traveling training setup available, the vast majority of it for free. Usually it's sponsored by the local electrical/LV supply house. They will give you a good start on many of the technologies (and also help you toward the certification that some companies desire).

If the BS level gets to high (and it will occasionally), take a course or two from some of the distributors. Both Worthington and SetNet have face-to-face and on-line classes. While everyone is biased somewhat, the distributor classes will give you a much better idea of what works and what doesn't (especially if you sit the instructor down behind a few beers after class )

 

[midhun]

If no *standard* standard exists, what technology are the Celestron guys using? Its it their own proprietary??

Bingo

I have now got a much more realistic picture of Home Automation. I am from an Asian country. There are no offices/dealer points of SH or any other guys. So going abroad just for the sake of training does not make any sense ( At least for me, it being so costly).

And importing the devices is also looks costly for me. If there exists no *standard* standard, and if every technology is being pushed to make it a *standard* standard, I guess I would rather be better developing some protocol for myself. I have got some arrangement so that the development would be taken care by some one else (It might even try it myself with a few guys ) - like what the biggies are doing.

I'm still a little confused about your use of the term module. It sounds like a module would be one of (lighting, HVAC Control, Security, AV distribution). If that is the case, I expect that you will absolutely need to use multiple protocols in your jobs. Or am I missing something and what you want to do is also manufacture controllers of different types?

You are right George. I meant modules as lighting, HVAC etc. Doesnt any of the existing protocols support all the modules?? and ya I would also like to move on to manufacturing - if possible - of these modules.

I would guess that SH is correct that if I had enough devices they would probably work (I was up to about 12 or so at one time).

Putting up a lot of INSTEON devices just to increase its reliability would kill me. As it is they are expensive and they do not even have all the range of products for a complete solution.

Also as Control4 does not produce a ZigBee device (due to the incomplete specification, as quoted by rocco) and neither are the other technologies fully developed (UPB must have, but "INSTEON Compared" shows that UPB can be jammed by triac transients and that the installation requires special devices), I would rather prefer to what Crestron and others do - may be build the RF devices myself. Isnt that better?? Any advices / opinions ?

 

[rocco]

You obviously did not attend the dog and pony show they had at EHX 2 years ago. In fairness though, the presentation was put on by marketing types, and marketing types would claim a product cures the common cold if not kept on a tight leash.

You are absolutely right, J. I do remember that.

At EHX in Long Beach, before Control4 had any products out, and also before the original Zigbee specification was ratified, their marketing was all about "open-standards".

Switches that talked Zigbee.
Touchpads that talked WiFi and bridged to Zigbee.
Touchpads that talked Ethernet and were Zigbee gateways.
And everything based on "open-standards".

For a system that was based on open-standards, their products are pretty closed. I think they have since migrated to the Crestron model.

 

[fitzpatri8]

Just because you don't have a boat or a light bulb handy, please don't conclude that water or electricity doesn't exist.

Tom

I like that quote. Mind if I usurp it someday (imitation is the greatest form of flattery after all)?

By all means, help yourself!

 

[KenM]

Just because you don't have a boat or a light bulb handy, please don't try to convince me that water and electricity don't exist.

Tom

As long as the boat floats

Ken

 

[SmartLabsMike]

I didn't call you any names, but you did use marketing words.

Wayne - I hope you forgive me for my use of marketing lingo.

 

[jlehnert]

So going abroad just for the sake of training does not make any sense

Yeah, that would put a bit of a curve into the cost equation. However, there are still the on-line courses. At one time SetNet was free, but I believe they are now charging for courses (less than a plane ticket though).

I guess I would rather be better developing some protocol for myself

Way too many protocols already.

 

[elcano]

but "INSTEON Compared" shows that UPB can be jammed by triac transients and that the installation requires special devices)

While there are not "UPB Compared" pseudo-paper advertising document published by the UPB vendors, or "Z-Wave Compared" documents published by Zensys, you might want to read older posts in the forum where actual users speak about their experience with each technology. Its a lot more neutral, and it is the real world.

I admit that I also got impressed by the paper when published. It was too good to be true. To think that regardless of the noise in my powerline my devices would have a redundant pathway to receive their signals (RF). As you see, with the current devices this dual-mesh does not work primarily as parallel networks - instead the RF mesh is used as a bridge for the powerline network. In the same way. I believed that the powerline would be able to overcome temporary RF communication problems whenever there was any RF interferece in the environment - again, this is not the case. There is no redundancy in the Signalinc RF circuit phase bridge.

BTW, I eventually decided for UPB and have not been able to jam it using the regular Lutro dimmers, even setting all them at the minimum level as the Insteon advertising paper argues.

 

[ano]

UPB must have, but "INSTEON Compared" shows that UPB can be jammed by triac transients and that the installation requires special devices)

Yup, UPB has a spec developed by PCS.

"triac transients" ?? Where did you get that one. I have had 48 UPB switches for about 8 months, and I've never seen one fail to respond. I do have a few non-UPB dimmers as well. If tric transients are a problem, I haven't seen it. "INSTEON Compared" wouldn'd be written by those supporting INSTEON, would it be?

 

[rocco]

"Triac transients" are a possible problem for UPB, just like meteor strikes are a possible problem for Insteon.

The possibility for triacs to interfere with UPB is when they occur simultaneously with the UPB pulse, and are of enough amplitude to mascaraed as a UPB pulse. Neither of these situations commonly occur.

The window for the UPB pulses were placed in an area of the AC cycle where triacs hardly ever fire: near the 10 to 20% dim level. Also few dimmers are so lacking in line filtering that the triac noise is as large as a UPB pulse.

 

[KenM]

Here are my RF devices:

http://cwfam.com/Public/Images/ZWave_Controllers_020207.jpg

I am hoping that INSTEON will post some of theirs, prior to 2020. I just made that date up, but it is starting to sound realistic, sorry.

Ken

Edit added:

By the way, these are Z-Wave.