Why is the Elk M1 so popular?

[Spanky]

As I said earlier in this thread, 90% of the available market for a security and home automation controller could not or would not learn in depth programming.

Many of the people that read this forum falls into that upper 10% which are willing and able to learn programming. ELK spent millions to find this out the hard way.

The GREAT thing about DIYer's is that when manufacturers listen to their great ideas, the products will improve and the market demands will slowly shift. You might say the DIYer's are on the bleeding edge of technology.

Improvements are always being made and are just a download away. We have a long list of "Wouldn't It Be Nice" features. I would like to put them all in the M1. The M1 system has been on the market for 3 years and in development for 6 years. The next 10 years will be impressive!


Thanks ALL for the input. It is always appreciated.

 

[toymaster458]

What would be REALY nice is a basic and advanced programing ability for the M1

 

[upstatemike]

As I said earlier in this thread, 90% of the available market for a security and home automation controller could not or would not learn in depth programming.

I hope you are not including my Stargate examples in your statement about "in depth" programming. The Stargate uses point and click menus to create programming steps same as ElkRP. The only difference is more menu options.

The Stargate does not even permit you to do manual programming so you can't make a syntax error or mistype something. Just as with the Elk M1, you can make logic errors but not programming ones.

 

[Digger]

IMHO ELK tried to make the M1 easy for installers to program. Many installers have to know multiple mfg's products. It is very difficult to be profecient in programming more than 2 or 3 brands tops (again IMHO).

It is also my opinion and that of a few friends of mine in the business that the ELK is much more feature packed and flexible than most other panels being manufactured today (I havent tried HAI personally). Just the other day I showed an Engineer/Installer how easy it was to program the M1 and all of the features (found a few I didnt know were there also) and he was very impressed. His family owns an installation business and he thought that the panel would be great for some of the requests that they get.

Since the majority of the M1's sold are probably to profesional installers it has to be geared to them and their market with a few extra's for DIY's like us. Since so much time and money goes into the design of the hardware and firmware there had to be a return on the investment if you want to stay in business.

I dont know of any other mfg that is doing such a good job catering to us DIY's. The few times I called ELK asking if the M1 could do something (or saying I thought it couldnt) the answer was "heck we can do that already" almost everytime. You cant even get someone to talk to at other mfg's.

Does anyone know of a currently manufactured panel that can do more than the M1???

 

[Stinger]

I guess after reading the rest of the threads since my last post, I'd say it was pretty clear that most haven't used the Stargate controller. As Mike pointed out, it's not complex programming, you select from a gui list of statements that revolve around X10 code commands, variables, timers, IR control, etc and do logic selections based on that.

This isn't meant to be a mines bigger than yours thread, it's meant to be a request to those responsible for the Elk or other future controllers to wake up and realize that variables, timers, and logic based instructions are very important.

The examples of what is missing in the Elk are endless, and while I really wanted to buy into a new replacement for my Stargate, there are no other products on the market that can directly compete with the Stargate.

I'm by no means suggesting anyone go out and get a stargate, I don't believe that would be a wise move either, as it is old technology and it's only still around because noone has decided to enter this area of the market. Homeseer is much more complicated to program, yet somehow there is a market for Homeseer.

To say there isn't a market for it is silly. I guess the best positioned company to introduce a hardware solution is Homeseer. Homeseer/Mainlobby will always excel at the interface and front end. My stargate, or hopefully a future controller will always be my dependable solution to control all my hard wired sensors, lights, IR network, HVAC, digital inputs/relays.

Examples of what happens when my doorbell rings (not programming, its GUI selections!):

EVENT: Doorbell
53: If
54: (DIoorBell) Toggles
55: Then
56: (Voorbell) INCREMENT
57: " Change VCR to Front CAM and Rec "
58: If
59: (T:VCR Timer) is Not Running
60: and (F:VCR Recording) is Not SET
61: Then
62: (IR:VCR 2 ) play 1 time(s) [Living Room,Receiver,Emitter3,Emitter4]
63: DELAY 0:00:01
64: (IR:VCR 6 ) play 1 time(s) [Living Room,Receiver,Emitter3,Emitter4]
65: DELAY 0:00:02
66: (IR:VCR Record ) play 1 time(s) [Living Room,Receiver,Emitter3,Emitter4]
67: (F:VCR Recording) SET
68: (T:VCR Timer) LOAD with 0:02:00
69: Nest End
70: If
71: (FIP) is Not SET
72: Then
73: (IR:TV PIP ON ) play 1 time(s) [Living Room,Receiver,Emitter3,Emitter4]
74: DELAY 0:00:01
75: (IR:VCR 2 ) play 1 time(s) [Living Room,Receiver,Emitter3,Emitter4]
76: DELAY 0:00:01
77: (IR:VCR 6 ) play 1 time(s) [Living Room,Receiver,Emitter3,Emitter4]
78: (TIP Timer) LOAD with 0:01:00
79: (FIP) SET
80: Else
81: (IR:VCR 2 ) play 1 time(s) [Living Room,Receiver,Emitter3,Emitter4]
82: DELAY 0:00:01
83: (IR:VCR 6 ) play 1 time(s) [Living Room,Receiver,Emitter3,Emitter4]
84: (TIP Timer) LOAD with 0:01:00
85: (FIP) SET
86: Nest End
87: " Page When doorbell rings "
88: If
89: (F:Away Mode) is SET
90: and (Tager Timer) is Not Running
91: Then
92: ASCII-Out:'&&C:\Progra~1\abcPag~1\abcpag~1.exe Tom: House: The doorbell is being rung. @' [COM1]
93: Nest End
94: (Tager Timer) LOAD with 0:04:00
95: (IR:Tuner Stargate ) play 2 time(s) [Living Room,Receiver,Emitter3,Emitter4]
96: DELAY 0:00:02
97: VoiceINGDONG [Line]
98: DELAY 0:00:02
99: (THEN MACRO:Resume Audio)
100: End

 

[DavidL]

You can do all of what you mention very easily with MainLobby Server 3's automation event builder. It's not just a front end, it just happens to also be the best front end

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

You can do all of what you mention very easily with MainLobby Server 3's automation event builder. It's not just a front end, it just happens to also be the best front end

AND just also happens to be PC based!

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Stinger;

[Monty Python Wise Old Man Voice] You seek the GRRRRRAAAIL![/Monty Python Wise Old Man Voice]

You are NOT going to find what you seek in one system.

Get an Elk
Get a serial expander board
Get an Ocelot

 

[electron]

The great amount of support, participation in the DIY community, and the fact that they listen to (and implement!) suggestions posted right here on CT are some of the reasons why it is so popular. No other manufacture has acted so fast to implement our requests (good example is the W800RF32 support request).

While I personally would love more advanced functionality as well, I can't think of another UL approved panel that is this flexible/expandable and offers this many features for such an affordable price.

edit: Stinger: that's pretty easy to do, I do this already using my Elk M1 and an Ocelot.

 

[Guy Lavoie]

I have never used a Stargate so I don't know its exact phone capabilities but I think the Elk is one of the very few hardware controllers with built-in phone support. Its probably not as versatile as the Stargate if the Stargate can do fancy IVR stuff like say numbers from variables, or allow you to create submenus, but having phone support in a hardware controller is a big plus. That's probably why you like your Stargate so much and find it hard to replace.

As BSR also echoed, a M1 with an Ocelot will probably do most of what the Stargate did plus a whole bunch of new things too...but probably not the phone functionality that you know.

 

[Stinger]

I guess the best advice comes from those familiar with both the Stargate and Elk, which I am not. Upstate seems to be very familiar with both, and like me, he wanted to make the switch as well.

Someday someone will take advantage of the void in the marketplace. I'll be the first in line.

 

[Stinger]

Stinger;

[Monty Python Wise Old Man Voice] You seek the GRRRRRAAAIL![/Monty Python Wise Old Man Voice]

You are NOT going to find what you seek in one system.

Get an Elk
Get a serial expander board
Get an Ocelot

No reason to do any of the above, I'd be GIVING up functionality. So until my IVR board (which controls voice responses and the phone) goes or a product comes out with functionality past a 10 year old system, i'll stay put. I was really hoping I'd be wrong about everything I heard on the capability.

In fact I may just port my voice feedback and such to homeseer and then I just have to deal with some minor telephony items such as dialing *xx number to have the system dial my phone card, callerID (which Homeseer and many other PC based systems can handle), etc. I just prefer one system to handle everything. When my phone goes off the hook, if music is playing, it shuts off all of the speakers, and upon going back onhook it will continue playing whatever input it was before. There are many different ways to tackle all of the things we like to do, but frankly at this point, I'm not going to use 3 systems to do what one did.

 

[elcano]

I'm one of the ones tha do not know the Stargate, so my question is basic. Is the Stargate and Alarm Panel? Or it is a HA panel?

The Ocelot is a basically a HA oriented PLC that some people program as an alarm. But is not an alarm - and it will be very difficult to program on it all the functions of an alarm (if possible at all).

The M1 on contrast is an UL approved alarm panel with relatively powerful PLC logic and an impressive list of input/output compatible peripherals. With this product Elk hits the sweet point that their marketing people wanted to reach (probably giving us some of a good stuff left us wanting more). But anyway, they invest their resources were their management think is more appropriate.

I guess (please correct me if wrong) that the Stargate is just an excellent HA controller - but not an approved alarm system. The question is: currently, which market is bigger, alarms or HA controllers? It is obvious that the alarm market is much bigger. So they focus in making the best alarm, not the best HA controller. If you dont focus in your business strategy you loose. I wonder how JDS's business is doing, anyway.

I personally was very deceived after ordering the M1 by noticing that it could not manage variables (or is extremely limited). I hate it. But love their customer service and their free firmware upgrades. At some time I'll buy an HA PC to complement my M1G.

 

[Guy Lavoie]

One of the nice things about this discussion is that I have nothing to sell, so I'm not trying to "sell" you on the Elk, Ocelot or anything else. If the Stargate controller does what you like then there is no reason to give it up. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. For a long time, the Stargate was the high end of the do it yourself controllers. You might even consider looking out for a spare (on ebay or whatever).

I have been using the Ocelot for over 6 years now an I just love it. I have bought an Elk to get the true alarm panel functionality that I wanted but the Ocelot remains my main controller and this will not change, and I did not get the Elk with the intent of replacing the Ocelot either. The Elk has nice connecitivty features that makes integration with existing controllers much easier then many other devices.

Your approach is a good one: ask many questions beforehand and make an informed decision. The Elk might be a great add-on to your Stargate, but might not fit the bill as an outright replacement.

 

[upstatemike]

I guess (please correct me if wrong) that the Stargate is just an excellent HA controller - but not an approved alarm system. The question is: currently, which market is bigger, alarms or HA controllers? It is obvious that the alarm market is much bigger. So they focus in making the best alarm, not the best HA controller.

You are correct, the Stargate is an HA controller (and this is an HA forum). The Stargate uses the Caddx NX8e for it's UL approved alarm. The integration is seemless (it really looks like one sytem in the interface) and has the advantage of allowing you to work on HA changes without impacting basic fire and securityfunctions. While it may appear to be an advantage to combine the HA and security functionality in one box, the fact is the security stuff takes up too much ROM space which is a big factor limiting the ability of the M1 to add new features.

As mentioned in another thread, splitting the M1 security board from the HA processing board might make sense at some point. That way you could start with a "smarter than average" alarm panel but move up to full blown automation if you wanted to.