toymaster458
Active Member
At least we are back on topic 
Why is the Elk M1 so popular?
- Thread starter Stinger
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Guy Lavoie
Active Member
I think the thread took a hardware controller vs PC software turn when the posters with something to sell jumped in and argued to justify their approaches. I'd still like to discuss some of the more generic reasons for the Elk's current popularity.
As WayneW said (I think it was Wayne), the Elk is still "new" and something new always creates some buzz around it. There is always the anticipation of new features, software releases, etc. Just look at the buzz that there was around HS 2.0 during most of last year.
But...I think that as some have said before, the support behind a product, especially in the still evolving HA world, is a big factor. The past successes of devices like the JDS and ADI controllers were mostly due to great support from their manufacturers. In the case of the M1, Elk has been making all the right moves so far and users always like to see their suggestions incorporated into future updates. Spanky's participation is much appreciated. Similarly a lot of people recommend buying HA gear from Automated Outlet because of the good support and active participation of Martin. Products come and go, but support (or lack thereof) seems to be a common denominator in their success or failure. Some recent new products we have seen here with high initial "buzz factor" have lost a lot of momentum due to poor manufacturer support.
(edit to correct spelling)
As WayneW said (I think it was Wayne), the Elk is still "new" and something new always creates some buzz around it. There is always the anticipation of new features, software releases, etc. Just look at the buzz that there was around HS 2.0 during most of last year.
But...I think that as some have said before, the support behind a product, especially in the still evolving HA world, is a big factor. The past successes of devices like the JDS and ADI controllers were mostly due to great support from their manufacturers. In the case of the M1, Elk has been making all the right moves so far and users always like to see their suggestions incorporated into future updates. Spanky's participation is much appreciated. Similarly a lot of people recommend buying HA gear from Automated Outlet because of the good support and active participation of Martin. Products come and go, but support (or lack thereof) seems to be a common denominator in their success or failure. Some recent new products we have seen here with high initial "buzz factor" have lost a lot of momentum due to poor manufacturer support.
(edit to correct spelling)
Guy, Yes and No.
The turn happened when Mike suggested that StarGate did things that the ELK doesnt' do. The PC stuff came in as a response on how that gap is bridged and surpassed (subject to discussion) by adding the PC to the mix. At least the folks that post here, and obviously on Homeseer's and Cinemar's forum that is how they use the ELK with a PC package. For those that don't want a PC in the mix at all, maybe the StarGate with it's additional automation capability (my assumption from reading this thread) fits most of the balance (most can be defined many ways), but at a higher hardware cost.
So, it's not just blatant sales pitch, but one popular avenue to accomplish end HA / HT goals.
The turn happened when Mike suggested that StarGate did things that the ELK doesnt' do. The PC stuff came in as a response on how that gap is bridged and surpassed (subject to discussion) by adding the PC to the mix. At least the folks that post here, and obviously on Homeseer's and Cinemar's forum that is how they use the ELK with a PC package. For those that don't want a PC in the mix at all, maybe the StarGate with it's additional automation capability (my assumption from reading this thread) fits most of the balance (most can be defined many ways), but at a higher hardware cost.
So, it's not just blatant sales pitch, but one popular avenue to accomplish end HA / HT goals.
ronaldbeal
Member
Since I am fairly new to HA, here is my decision calculus as to what I would purchase if I were getting a dedicated HA controller.
My current house has about 20 Insteon devices I bought to add some appeal when I go to sell it in the next few months. (In a cookie cutter subdivision you need something to make it stand out from the 10 other identical houses for sale in the same few blocks.)
Looking at hardware based controllers, the only ones that even seem to have current or future insteon support are ELK, Cortexa, and Homeseer pro. Cortexa and HS pro, seem to be closer to PC's than embedded controllers. My other option is to go with a PC based option. If I am going to get a security system anyway, might as well get the ELK, that makes it a great deal for BASIC HA (about $300 over the cost of a good non-HA security system) Then if I eventually wanted more functionality from my HA, I can add a PC or Cortexa, or HS pro, or some other option that may open up in the future.
If I used X-10 and not Insteon, would by choices change? Well I'd have a few more options, Stargate, Ocelot/Lepord, Omni II, and maybe a few others I'm not currently aware of. Because of its price, Ocelot would get serious consideration from me. If I'm going to spend over a grand on a HA controller, It's got to offer something above and beyond what a PC based controller can do. Otherwise, for me, at that pricepoint, I trust generic support for PC's to be much more available 10 years down the road. Cortexas intergrated dvr and video make it competitive (it takes a bit more work to get HA capable video working on a PC vs just working out of the box.)
I just can't find anything Stargate offers over a PC solution at that price.
One additional factor is marketing and public perception. As much as we like the technology, how it's presented has as just as big an impact on someone just looking into HA as the actual tech behind it.
look at the JDS website:
http://www.jdstechnologies.com/
Not to disparage anyone, but the website looks poorly done, and dosn't inspire the same confidence as, say Cortexa:
http://www.cortexatechnology.com/
This dosn't mean one technology is better than the other, or that one has better support than another, but for someone that is just starting out in HA, perception is everything. Hearing about ELK supporting the latest protocols (i.e. insteon), and not hearing about Stargate creates the perception, Elk is better.
So in answer to post #1 in this thread, maybe it's popular because it creates the perception that it is better, or a great value for the money.
Respectfully,
RB
My current house has about 20 Insteon devices I bought to add some appeal when I go to sell it in the next few months. (In a cookie cutter subdivision you need something to make it stand out from the 10 other identical houses for sale in the same few blocks.)
Looking at hardware based controllers, the only ones that even seem to have current or future insteon support are ELK, Cortexa, and Homeseer pro. Cortexa and HS pro, seem to be closer to PC's than embedded controllers. My other option is to go with a PC based option. If I am going to get a security system anyway, might as well get the ELK, that makes it a great deal for BASIC HA (about $300 over the cost of a good non-HA security system) Then if I eventually wanted more functionality from my HA, I can add a PC or Cortexa, or HS pro, or some other option that may open up in the future.
If I used X-10 and not Insteon, would by choices change? Well I'd have a few more options, Stargate, Ocelot/Lepord, Omni II, and maybe a few others I'm not currently aware of. Because of its price, Ocelot would get serious consideration from me. If I'm going to spend over a grand on a HA controller, It's got to offer something above and beyond what a PC based controller can do. Otherwise, for me, at that pricepoint, I trust generic support for PC's to be much more available 10 years down the road. Cortexas intergrated dvr and video make it competitive (it takes a bit more work to get HA capable video working on a PC vs just working out of the box.)
I just can't find anything Stargate offers over a PC solution at that price.
One additional factor is marketing and public perception. As much as we like the technology, how it's presented has as just as big an impact on someone just looking into HA as the actual tech behind it.
look at the JDS website:
http://www.jdstechnologies.com/
Not to disparage anyone, but the website looks poorly done, and dosn't inspire the same confidence as, say Cortexa:
http://www.cortexatechnology.com/
This dosn't mean one technology is better than the other, or that one has better support than another, but for someone that is just starting out in HA, perception is everything. Hearing about ELK supporting the latest protocols (i.e. insteon), and not hearing about Stargate creates the perception, Elk is better.
So in answer to post #1 in this thread, maybe it's popular because it creates the perception that it is better, or a great value for the money.
Respectfully,
RB
upstatemike
Senior Member
Looking at the same thing I get the opposite impression. The JDS site is visually detailed with lots of pictures of their products. It is packed with information including specifications, app notes, and full product manuals.ronaldbeal said:
The Cortexa site on the other hand looks canned. It is mostly text with a logo and a minimal amount of graphics. More importantly, it is mostly fluff; virtually free of any useful content. No manuals, no app notes, no programming examples or other hints about how the system actually works or what it's true capabilities are. Just fluffy marketing generalities.
toymaster458
Active Member
It all depends on who is looking at it. If a technical type person is looking at them, they would agree with upstatemike but on the other hand a non technical person would agree with ronaldbeal.
This is mostly due to the type of customers that each company is trying to attract.
This is mostly due to the type of customers that each company is trying to attract.
Hello,
The Cortexa is a complete hardware/software solution. There are manual, and app notes on the website, just have to look for them. The product is pretty new, so as we learn what people wont to know, we create documents all the time and we will be adding them to our new support page once our website is updated. I do not understand what marketing fluff you are talking about because the Cortexa has not been marketed much. If you won’t to talk about marketing fluff, go look at Control4 or Exceptional Innovations.
The Cortexa was design for people who do not have time to read manual and play around with code. It was design to be plugged in and it works, which is what most consumers wont. If there are any question about the Cortexa, or how to do something, please email us, and we will answer the question. I am quit amazed at how people form there opinion on a product they have not used.
Thanks
JBDWW
The Cortexa is a complete hardware/software solution. There are manual, and app notes on the website, just have to look for them. The product is pretty new, so as we learn what people wont to know, we create documents all the time and we will be adding them to our new support page once our website is updated. I do not understand what marketing fluff you are talking about because the Cortexa has not been marketed much. If you won’t to talk about marketing fluff, go look at Control4 or Exceptional Innovations.
The Cortexa was design for people who do not have time to read manual and play around with code. It was design to be plugged in and it works, which is what most consumers wont. If there are any question about the Cortexa, or how to do something, please email us, and we will answer the question. I am quit amazed at how people form there opinion on a product they have not used.
Thanks
JBDWW
IVB
Senior Member
jbdww said:
(using 2nd person tense assuming you work for cortexa as you said "email us")
I don't know that Mike was "forming an opinion" about a product, only on how he feels your website reflects on the company.
But even if he was, isn't the point of a customer-facing website to educate folks on a product? And, as you educate folks, they'll create an opinion about it. Not all folks will want all products, as the populace is inherently diverse (which is a good thing as it stimulates competition). This means that some folks will like the site and the product, some will not. Create a site that addresses your target market and accept the fallout from folks who don't like it.
Trust me on this one thing, as I'm on the biz side of the house and not IT: The only worse thing than having a bad opinion is having no opinion. Having a bad opinion means you have mindshare, and a good sales force can turn that around. Having no opinion means you're not even on the radar screen.
Hello,
IVB you make a great point. We also like to hear about opinions to know when someone is getting the wrong impression so that we can make it clearer on our website. I should be a careful on my side to because we need to hear what the end user wants. Our product is designed on what the end users are asking for, because if we do not cater to the end user, then we need to close shop now.
Just another note. We are creating a huge amount of training materials which will be on our new website soon.
Thanks
JBDWW
IVB you make a great point. We also like to hear about opinions to know when someone is getting the wrong impression so that we can make it clearer on our website. I should be a careful on my side to because we need to hear what the end user wants. Our product is designed on what the end users are asking for, because if we do not cater to the end user, then we need to close shop now.
Just another note. We are creating a huge amount of training materials which will be on our new website soon.
Thanks
JBDWW
upstatemike
Senior Member
IVB is correct. My comments were about the Cortexa web page, not about the product. More specifically it was about how I felt the page comapred to the JDS web page.jbdww said:
I also think it will be good if people do express opinions about Cortexa here, even if it sounds negative sometimes, because that will generate more discussion about your product and encourage more people to take a look at it. Sometimes a strong argument will generate more positive discussion than a simple product announcement will.
As a relative newbie to HA, I've browsed hundreds of sites over the past two years in preparation of doing an all-out DIY system. We're talking from-scratch with relays to Crestron/AMX. I've considered it all. When you don't know much about HA and haven't discovered the boards like this where you can start to get opinions on products beyond the presentation the corporate websites give you, first impressions are key. I eliminated several products simply due to outdated sites (that give the impression that the product is old or perhaps is no longer supported).
Regarding the looks of the JDS website, I agree that it looks very dated and does not present a professional image to a broad audience. I saw the site a year ago and my first thought was "This looks soooooo 1995". Before reading about it here, I thought that it was some kind of outdated X10-like technology that I should move to the no-way column. All that based on their own website!
As it turns out, I was almost correct (that the site is soooo 1995). It is nearly identical to the original 1998 version of the site: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.jdstechnologies.com/
I'm not commenting on the product, just the presentation. However, that presentation turned me off from the start and when I went back to re-evaluate, much of my opinion had already been formed.
For another example, take two lighting companies... Both are old, established companies but which one gives you a warm fuzzy when you first visit?
Touchplate (Established in 1946)
Lutron (Established in 1961)
"You never get a second chance to make a first impression"
-Stormy.
Regarding the looks of the JDS website, I agree that it looks very dated and does not present a professional image to a broad audience. I saw the site a year ago and my first thought was "This looks soooooo 1995". Before reading about it here, I thought that it was some kind of outdated X10-like technology that I should move to the no-way column. All that based on their own website!
As it turns out, I was almost correct (that the site is soooo 1995). It is nearly identical to the original 1998 version of the site: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.jdstechnologies.com/
I'm not commenting on the product, just the presentation. However, that presentation turned me off from the start and when I went back to re-evaluate, much of my opinion had already been formed.
For another example, take two lighting companies... Both are old, established companies but which one gives you a warm fuzzy when you first visit?
Touchplate (Established in 1946)
Lutron (Established in 1961)
"You never get a second chance to make a first impression"
-Stormy.
upstatemike
Senior Member
I like the Touchplate site. It shows you the product right on the main page without having to dig through 3 layers of fluff to get to it.
The Lutron site takes a long way around to not tell you very much.
The Lutron site takes a long way around to not tell you very much.
I actually prefer the Lutron site. The other one has a late 90's feel or that little effort was spent on the site. More along the lines of what I would expect a solo entrepreneur or small business to setup than a large company that was old, established and providing high end goods.
Just my opinion though.
Just my opinion though.
toymaster458, do you still have the Homeseer phone switch? Mine got zapped by lightning (and so did my spare) so I'd like to find one that works so perhaps I can fix the ones I have (and so that I'll have something that works in the mean time...)
Thanks.
Martin
Thanks.
Martin
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