drozwood90
Senior Member
mdiehl said he had 5 x 200W panels. The 76 KWH would be a cumulative number, he cannot produce 76 KW, that little "h" is sneaky.
Thanks Wayne, reading on a Pocket PC...you sometimes miss things!
Winter and Solar Panels???
- Thread starter drozwood90
- Start date
Thanks Wayne, reading on a Pocket PC...you sometimes miss things!
drozwood90
Senior Member
mdiehl,
what part of Ohio are you in?
I'm trying to run some guestimates to compare your setup to my proposed system (proposed to my wife... so far!).
Thanks!
--Dan
what part of Ohio are you in?
I'm trying to run some guestimates to compare your setup to my proposed system (proposed to my wife... so far!).
Thanks!
--Dan
I'm located a few miles outside of Chillicothe (which is on a line halfway between Columbus, and Portsmouth (southern border by the Ohio River).
Sorry for any confusion on the power generated thus far
. That figure is the CUMULATIVE power for the last two weeks or so which is figured in KWH, or looking at it another way is a produced power of 1000 watts for (right now) 82 hours. Which yields 82 KWH (as of this moment) since "the switch was thrown" a bit over two weeks ago. The Instantaneous Power that I'm producing right now is 576 watts (under hazy skies). I'm looking at the Software that is monitoring the Inverter and its telling me that I've produced about 3 KWHs so far today. If the wife is looking at it from a purely financial perspective, it may be a hard sell (although power company rates will continue to rise...), another option might be a "Hybrid" system that is capable of both "grid-tie" and operation from a battery bank as well so that if the local grid goes down (how reliable is your local power company?...), would then enable you to run essentials during an extended outage.
I still haven't checked out the Enphase Modules further, but still, if you wanted a "grid-tie" system only, one panel and one module would enable you to do a "proof of concept" demo to the wife for a limited amount of money, which you could "scale up" a piece at a time as it were, if both of you agree to that point.
Got my DC Disconnect this morning, so I'll get that installed later, and post a pic of the installed Inverter.
drozwood90
Senior Member
Thanks!
Fast Yak?
My issue with the Enphase, is I am still waiting to hear from them about the use of it with UPB. I just dropped $3k on it, and want to make sure that I did not buy something that will prevent my switches from working. I like the idea of 1 and a demo, as using the Enphase stuff, I will be able to get 1 panel and 1 Enphase unit grid tied for about $200 after all the tax breaks (using the 120W panel listed above). That is IF they are still available by the time I am ready to buy!!
--Dan
Fast Yak?
My issue with the Enphase, is I am still waiting to hear from them about the use of it with UPB. I just dropped $3k on it, and want to make sure that I did not buy something that will prevent my switches from working. I like the idea of 1 and a demo, as using the Enphase stuff, I will be able to get 1 panel and 1 Enphase unit grid tied for about $200 after all the tax breaks (using the 120W panel listed above). That is IF they are still available by the time I am ready to buy!!
--Dan
drozwood90
Senior Member
OK, I finally got my reply...well, they did take a while...but I just haven't posted the answers. They told me over the phone that I SHOULDN'T have a problem with my UPB / X10 and their inverters...but it does scare me a bit that they also communicate over the power line.
UPB's frequency is (from memory) 40kHz, and X10 is 120kHz. So, I think that's why they won't interfere with the two power line protocols.
Well, here they are:
"Dan,
Thank you for all of your patience in awaiting my response. I have answered your questions to the best of my ability.
-What is the communications frequency and line level that your product puts out?
The communication frequency is 143.5 kHz. The output level is approximately 120 dBuV or 1 Vrms.
-I was also wondering, is there a way that I can monitor the information from the EMU? Do I HAVE to send the data to Enphase?
You do not have to send your information to the Enlighten website. It is possible to plug your PC directly into the EMU and monitor it locally. I will send you another email with some details on how to accomplish this. Please keep in mind that we highly recommend that you use Enlighten to monitor your system so that you may benefit from the per module information and the analytics that Enlighten will offer your system. These features will help to maximize your energy harvest.
-Has there been any thought in having a battery backup on this system as well?
This system is intended as a grid-tied system and is not intended to be used with a battery backup system. We have not tested our devices within a battery backup system.
-What happens if there is a power outtage in my area? How does the unit protect itself from overcurrent, or feeding power into a grid that is dead?
If a power outage occurs each Enphase micro-inverter will shut down within a matter of mS. Our micro-inverter is UL1741 listed, and in order to be listed under such, an inverter must have an anti-islanding feature to shut off during a power outage. When the grid comes back online the micro-inverters will sense it, and automatically start back up again.
-One final question, did I read the spec. sheet properly? EACH inverter will use about 6W (~5.85W) of power from the powerline at night?
Actually they will each use 580mW.
Again thank you for your patience. I would love to hear back from you on your results with your new system. Let me know if you have any other questions in the future."
I let him know that since their system shutsdown when the grid goes down...it was basically useless to me.
Oh well...
--Dan
UPB's frequency is (from memory) 40kHz, and X10 is 120kHz. So, I think that's why they won't interfere with the two power line protocols.
Well, here they are:
"Dan,
Thank you for all of your patience in awaiting my response. I have answered your questions to the best of my ability.
-What is the communications frequency and line level that your product puts out?
The communication frequency is 143.5 kHz. The output level is approximately 120 dBuV or 1 Vrms.
-I was also wondering, is there a way that I can monitor the information from the EMU? Do I HAVE to send the data to Enphase?
You do not have to send your information to the Enlighten website. It is possible to plug your PC directly into the EMU and monitor it locally. I will send you another email with some details on how to accomplish this. Please keep in mind that we highly recommend that you use Enlighten to monitor your system so that you may benefit from the per module information and the analytics that Enlighten will offer your system. These features will help to maximize your energy harvest.
-Has there been any thought in having a battery backup on this system as well?
This system is intended as a grid-tied system and is not intended to be used with a battery backup system. We have not tested our devices within a battery backup system.
-What happens if there is a power outtage in my area? How does the unit protect itself from overcurrent, or feeding power into a grid that is dead?
If a power outage occurs each Enphase micro-inverter will shut down within a matter of mS. Our micro-inverter is UL1741 listed, and in order to be listed under such, an inverter must have an anti-islanding feature to shut off during a power outage. When the grid comes back online the micro-inverters will sense it, and automatically start back up again.
-One final question, did I read the spec. sheet properly? EACH inverter will use about 6W (~5.85W) of power from the powerline at night?
Actually they will each use 580mW.
Again thank you for your patience. I would love to hear back from you on your results with your new system. Let me know if you have any other questions in the future."
I let him know that since their system shutsdown when the grid goes down...it was basically useless to me.
Oh well...
--Dan
Sounds like they were pretty straightforward with the answers to your technical questions. I was pretty sure that they were pure "grid-tie" and not intended for "battery backup" use. My "new" system is exactly the same way...if the grid fails the inverter will go "off-line" till the grid is restored. The Enphase (like the older "OK4" inverters) depend on the the current limitations of the panel to provide "regulation".
The good news in all this (but more expensive of course
), is that I think there are "hybrid" inverters out there now, that will "Grid -tie" but (with batteries), will also serve as an Battery/Inverter system to provide back-up power when the Grid goes Kaput...I had decided not to go with a "Hybrid" system, as I already had a dedicated Battery/Inverter system for backup power, and would have ended up with an "obsolete" 3KW Prosine ($2300.00 some 7 years ago...).
My best advice at this point is to ask yourself (and get "wife approval") by looking at your immediate needs (and finances of course). To me initially, I chose "emergency backup power" which, looking back, was the right thing to do. Look around at what you would NEED to run during an extended outage and if its feasible to run within the limits of your system. For me, since I had a gas furnace, "tankless" gas water heater, etc. I could provide that for two or three days and still have a light (and short intervals of "conveniences") AND stay reasonably warm. Its hard to put a price tag on that one.
I did do a quick search and I guess if I were starting from scratch, a Xantrex XW series, or Beacon Power "Hybrid" System is where I would look.
Meanwhile keep juggling the "idea" and looking 'round, at least looking is still free
drozwood90
Senior Member
Another reply from Enphase in regards to my telling him WHY his system was useless to me. My first point was that it MUST be compatible with X10 and UPB...which I thought it was. Secondly, that I wanted to use the thing as a backup for my house in the event of grid failure. I have been looking at the Xantrex XW system. Sent them the same questions as the Enphase guys.
http://www.xantrex.com/xw/00_prod-page_overview_intr.html
That looks like it'll do everything! If I cut out most of those items, I think I can use just the Inverter and the Solar charger. Everything else I can build myself. Although that depends on the availability of DC breakers at that power level. Now the Enphase guys quote UL1741...basically if there is power outtage they don't want the Inverter providing dangers power out to the grid where people are working...thinking it is a dead line.
The Xantrex one seems to literally just sever power from the grid until it senses voltage again. The nice thing about the Xantrex one is that I've read on another forum that someone was using the XW system with UPB, no issues. That puts that one step above the Beacon in my mind...although I"ll fire off the same questions to Beacon to see what they say about the Automation. I also liked that the response time for the XW system was 300mS (switching from Grid to Battery). Basically the same as a regular APCC UPS system.
You ARE right though. I want enough things to be powered during an outtage, where we are not terribly inconvenienced. Not ALL lights will turn on, BUT we will have light, power for furnace, etc.
Now, his reply:
"
1 - It does not look like the two will interfere with our systems communication but it is unclear whether the opposite will be true. Someone is working to draft a document on our end with some more detailed information regarding how our EMU communications work. Our engineers have been very busy so it may just be a matter of time but as soon as this document is available I will be certain to forward it on to you.
2 - The reason that the inverters will shutdown is actually two fold. First, they require a source of power in order to operate and this is why they are designed for grid-tied applications. Second, is a safety issue regarding UL1741. To be a UL listed inverter the product is required to have an "anti-island" feature in the case of a power outage. This is to prevent the inverter from potentially giving power back to the grid during a power outage, where someone could be working on wires that they believe are dead. I am not aware of any ways around this mechanism or anything that we are planning to produce, but your installer or distributor may have some more knowledge in this area.
I will leave your case open and I will forward you the communications doc. as soon as its available. Please let me know of any other questions in the meantime."
--Dan
http://www.xantrex.com/xw/00_prod-page_overview_intr.html
That looks like it'll do everything! If I cut out most of those items, I think I can use just the Inverter and the Solar charger. Everything else I can build myself. Although that depends on the availability of DC breakers at that power level. Now the Enphase guys quote UL1741...basically if there is power outtage they don't want the Inverter providing dangers power out to the grid where people are working...thinking it is a dead line.
The Xantrex one seems to literally just sever power from the grid until it senses voltage again. The nice thing about the Xantrex one is that I've read on another forum that someone was using the XW system with UPB, no issues. That puts that one step above the Beacon in my mind...although I"ll fire off the same questions to Beacon to see what they say about the Automation. I also liked that the response time for the XW system was 300mS (switching from Grid to Battery). Basically the same as a regular APCC UPS system.
You ARE right though. I want enough things to be powered during an outtage, where we are not terribly inconvenienced. Not ALL lights will turn on, BUT we will have light, power for furnace, etc.
Now, his reply:
"
1 - It does not look like the two will interfere with our systems communication but it is unclear whether the opposite will be true. Someone is working to draft a document on our end with some more detailed information regarding how our EMU communications work. Our engineers have been very busy so it may just be a matter of time but as soon as this document is available I will be certain to forward it on to you.
2 - The reason that the inverters will shutdown is actually two fold. First, they require a source of power in order to operate and this is why they are designed for grid-tied applications. Second, is a safety issue regarding UL1741. To be a UL listed inverter the product is required to have an "anti-island" feature in the case of a power outage. This is to prevent the inverter from potentially giving power back to the grid during a power outage, where someone could be working on wires that they believe are dead. I am not aware of any ways around this mechanism or anything that we are planning to produce, but your installer or distributor may have some more knowledge in this area.
I will leave your case open and I will forward you the communications doc. as soon as its available. Please let me know of any other questions in the meantime."
--Dan
drozwood90
Senior Member
One last thing for a bit...
The Beacon Power Inverters seem to cost more (per this site) than the Xantrex:
http://www.stsolar.org/beacon_power.htm
http://www.stsolar.org/xantrex_xw_series.htm
As well as the fact that they are claiming 93.5% efficiency. This is about the same as the Xantrex, BUT I can get a Xantrex system PLUS $650 battery charger unit for less than the Beacon Power guy.
Albeit STILL thousands of dollars...
BUT...
-------------
Does your 3KW Prosine system work with any powerline stuff? I know you said you use Z-Wave, but if X10 works, there is hope.
Secondly, you probably have a MANUAL transfer switch to provide the power to your house?
--Dan
The Beacon Power Inverters seem to cost more (per this site) than the Xantrex:
http://www.stsolar.org/beacon_power.htm
http://www.stsolar.org/xantrex_xw_series.htm
As well as the fact that they are claiming 93.5% efficiency. This is about the same as the Xantrex, BUT I can get a Xantrex system PLUS $650 battery charger unit for less than the Beacon Power guy.
Albeit STILL thousands of dollars...
BUT...
-------------
Does your 3KW Prosine system work with any powerline stuff? I know you said you use Z-Wave, but if X10 works, there is hope.
Secondly, you probably have a MANUAL transfer switch to provide the power to your house?
--Dan
I don't know if the Prosine would work with X-10. Its basically set up to feed a couple of circuits right now and basically I "sold-off" the X-10 stuff I had, so I don't have an answer there.
As you mentioned, I do use an external "changeover switch" for which I purchased a circuit box about the size of a 100 amp 'breaker panel", and just used "center off" 15-20 amp rated Toggle Switches to switch from "Grid" to "Inverter" for each circuit. That made sure that I didn't inadvertently power-up the "local grid". I may actually replace those toggles with relays so I can add an upstairs "changover" and avoid heading into the basement when extended outages occur.
