Wire run to light switches...now what?

[cgull]

Without knowing too much about lighting automation, I had Cat5e run to many of the light switches in my house (new construction, no drywall yet). I ran it to regular room lights, flood light switches, and the garage door switches. Now I'm confused about what light switch brands I can use b/c a lot of them use a wireless/powerline technology that don't need low voltage wires, and others run the high voltage back to a main closet and only have the LV wires run to the light switches. I haven't decided on the controller yet but it's going to either be the ELK M1 or the HAI OPII.

From what I can tell from the HA comparison spreadsheet, ALC (or whatever they become), EDT iLine, and Clipsal C-Bus are the options. Is this correct or am I missing something?

Also, if I want to have a set of buttons next to the bed to do things like turn on the flood lights and/or turn off the lights in the house (sleep mode), what's the best way to do this? The reason I'm asking is that it seems like the brands I mention above operate by switching the high voltage at the light switch...with what I'm talking about it would be a button panel with only low voltage running to it. I would think it's possible right?

 

[sic0048]

EDT iLine went out of business a couple years ago. I'd be surprised if you could even find any hardware at this point, but I certainly would recommend not using them even if you could (because eventually you won't be able to find hardware).

As you mentioned, there is also a whole host of wireless options available. While hardwired systems are going to generally be more reliable than wireless or powerline (where the automation signal is transmitted over the HV power line), the new wireless systems are getting to be very reliable.

Some wireles systems that I would personally consider are:
Zigbee - like the Centralite brand Jetstream system
Z-Wave - I honestly don't know much about this type of system
Lutron RadioRa 2 - a just released wireless system that is better than the original RadioRa system

 

[Steve]

Lutron has the Homeworks system which can be wired and/or wireless. There is a thread around discussing it. You can get keypads in either a powerline control or wireless system. With wireless it would not have to be plugged in it all to either LV or HV.

Did you make sure there are neutrals run to all of your switch boxes as well? Not having a neutral will limit your choices of PLC or wireless devices.

 

[ingeborgdot]

Question on the wireless. How does it control the light if it has no wire?

 

[Steve]

Wireless refers to the communication and control of the switch to the 'controller'. The actual switch itself is still wired into the high voltage of the house. The control signals can either be over the powerline itself as in UPB and Insteon, wireless as in Zigbee, Zwave and other systems like Vizia and RadioRa, or it could be over a dedicated low voltage wire as in ALC and others.

 

[oberkc]

The purpose of adding the CAT-5 cable is to avoid using Powerline and RF control. Both can be less than 100% reliable. I have little experience with hardwired automation, but have heard much talk about On-Q. I also thought Lutron had a nice line of controls working from Cat-5.

While I do have insteon and X-10 in my house, (and have heard good things about UPB) these seem to me to be best suited for retrofit, where there are no control wires existing. My understanding, however, is that nothing beats hard wired control for reliability.

 

[ano]

Yeah, a few things. First just recently announced was that ACL would no longer be supported by its manufacturer, so that one may be out as well.

Wired systems were good in the previous days when X-10 was the norm, but both wireless, like ZigBee and Z-Wave, and powerline like UPB, has come a long way since then. I use UPB and if its not 100% reliable, its pretty darn close. Wired switches that use low-voltage wiring like ACL are definitely on the way-out if they are not mostly gone in some cases.

Second, be VERY careful with those CAT-5 wires. It is currently against the building codes to have ANY low-voltage wiring in the same box as 120V wiring. If an inspector sees that your wiring will NOT pass inspection. Make sure all your CAT-5 wiring is nailed up BEHIND the box and not in it. If you do eventually go a wired route, those switches will also keep the low voltage wires OUTSIDE the box.

 

[DJK]

Glenn,

I went through the same process as you and ended up with the clipsal system. It's a central system where all of the power for the lights (or controlled outlets) are wired back to a central location. Each switch is connected to a low voltage (LV) line which communicates the commands back to the central location. I belive that Centralite/Lutron are this way also.

The other way to do this is to have each switch placed in a "traditional" location, and then the signaling is done via cable to each switch, wireless, or through the high voltage (HV) line.

My comparison came down to Lutron vs. Clipsal based on reliablity and programmability.

It is GREAT to be able to turn lights on/off via the iPhone while in bed using the eKeypad software and the Elk/Clipsal connector.

 

[cornutt]

If you have already run both the Cat5 and the line voltage wiring to every switch location, and if your choice winds up being the OPII, I'd go with ALC devices. These devices switch the power at the switch location (you don't have to home run) and communicate back to the controller via the Cat5. The OPII can deal with a mix of devices, so you can also add HLC/UPB as you need to. In particular, for your beside device, you can get an HAI scene switch or house status switch mounted in a tabletop cradle. This plugs into an outlet with an ordinary line cord, and communicates back to the controller via UPB.

 

[oberkc]

It is currently against the building codes to have ANY low-voltage wiring in the same box as 120V wiring.

I thought that if the low-voltage wire's insulation was rated for 110v, then sharing a box was safe, and within code. Am I mistaken here?

 

[sic0048]

Yeah, a few things. First just recently announced was that ACL would no longer be supported by its manufacturer, so that one may be out as well.

Well, the ALC line is changing manufacturers. To say that it isn't being supported by it's manufacturer is a little misleading. It isn't out of business like the EDT iLine system is.

Here is a thread that follows the ALC developments as they unfolded if you want more information on the situation. But the bottom line is that the ALC line is going to be supported by a new company formed by Tony Steward and his family. Tony was part of the original ALC design team and he currently runs a Alarm & Automation Supply company. So while the new company is certainly smaller than OnQ, it is debt free and run by some very dedicated people that know the ALC system about as well as anyone. So I look for the ALC line to be around for quite a long time.

 

[cgull]

Thanks for all the feedback! I'm aware of the changes with ALC and feel completely comfortable with the new owners...it seems like it isn't going away. So it really boils down to ALC as my only main option it sounds like. From what DJK is saying about how the Clipsal system works, that option is out b/c my HV wiring has already been run (Clipsal requires centralized HV with distributed LV control).

So if I go with ALC, I'm seriously thinking about having the switches installed now instead of waiting a couple years down the road. Two reasons for this: 1) It seems like it would be a lot easier now when the LV guy and the HV electrician can talk, and 2) I can roll the additional cost into my mortgage. Yeah I'll be making my mortgage higher but this is the only way I can be assured that automated lighting will happen! Plus, I saved a good bit of money doing all the network, AV distribution, and speaker wiring so I 'technically' wouldn't be increasing the final cost.

It looks like it might be hard to find a good source for the ALC switches...I'm going to have to do some more searching to see.

Lutron has the Homeworks system which can be wired and/or wireless. There is a thread around discussing it. You can get keypads in either a powerline control or wireless system. With wireless it would not have to be plugged in it all to either LV or HV.

Did you make sure there are neutrals run to all of your switch boxes as well? Not having a neutral will limit your choices of PLC or wireless devices.

I'm not up on the terminology but the wire at each switch has three wires: a neutral, a hot, and a ground. I assume this is what you're referring to right?

Second, be VERY careful with those CAT-5 wires. It is currently against the building codes to have ANY low-voltage wiring in the same box as 120V wiring. If an inspector sees that your wiring will NOT pass inspection. Make sure all your CAT-5 wiring is nailed up BEHIND the box and not in it. If you do eventually go a wired route, those switches will also keep the low voltage wires OUTSIDE the box.

I was aware but it's always good to mention something like that! The LV wiring will be outside the box...I think the guy doing the LV wiring (mainly for security) is going to run the LV on top of the boxes so it can be fished out later.

If you have already run both the Cat5 and the line voltage wiring to every switch location, and if your choice winds up being the OPII, I'd go with ALC devices. These devices switch the power at the switch location (you don't have to home run) and communicate back to the controller via the Cat5. The OPII can deal with a mix of devices, so you can also add HLC/UPB as you need to. In particular, for your beside device, you can get an HAI scene switch or house status switch mounted in a tabletop cradle. This plugs into an outlet with an ordinary line cord, and communicates back to the controller via UPB.

Yes the scene switch...that's exactly what I would like. I was wondering how that worked not being hooked up to a HV load but I see what you're saying now thanks!

 

[Neurorad]

HomeWorks 4 would still be a good, but expensive, option.

http://www.lutron.com/NoLimits/enews/files/048-035a.pdf

I think Centralite also offers a product that uses conventionally wired switches and ethernet cable for control.

Edit - no, can't find a Centralite product that fits. Their hardwired solutions require home-run wiring of central loads. Clipsal CBus also needs home-run HV loads.

 

[Zanthic]

It is currently against the building codes to have ANY low-voltage wiring in the same box as 120V wiring.

I thought that if the low-voltage wire's insulation was rated for 110v, then sharing a box was safe, and within code. Am I mistaken here?

it is not accurate to make a blanket statement that you can't have any low voltage wiring inside the same box as 120v. Just about every electrical device does this, they just follow the proper rules of isolation. A good example is the current sensors that are placed inside your breaker panel and brought out to the sender unit for a power monitoring device. There is isolation between the high voltage and the low voltage and the wire is sufficiently rated. For a hard wired lighting system that is combining the high voltage and the cat5 they will typically have the high voltage behind the switch and the low voltage comes around the front of the box and into the switch front. The switch itself has the proper isolation built in (electrically) and the body forms the physical separation.

 

[Herdfan]

It is currently against the building codes to have ANY low-voltage wiring in the same box as 120V wiring. If an inspector sees that your wiring will NOT pass inspection.

It is currently against the building codes to have ANY low-voltage wiring in the same box as 120V wiring.

I thought that if the low-voltage wire's insulation was rated for 110v, then sharing a box was safe, and within code. Am I mistaken here?

it is not accurate to make a blanket statement that you can't have any low voltage wiring inside the same box as 120v.

At the end of the day, it is up to the AHJ and its inspector, but NEC provides for allowing LV wire to reside in the same box as HV wire as long as 1) the LV wire is there for the purpose of controlling the HV device and 2) the LV wire is properly rated (600V).

http://resi.lutron.com/Portals/3/Support/A...20Note%2038.pdf

With that said, CAT5 is not adequate for inclusion in a box with HV wiring.