alarm system in sub freezing temperatures

[mikefamig]

I have not insulated and heated my garage yet and am a little concerned with the security system surviving sub freezing and maybe even sub zero temperatures.
 
The wiring box in the garage contains
 
1 p212s power supply
1 M1DBH
1 M1XIN
1 M1OVR
1 12v ackup battery
 
There is also a keypad on the wall.
 
I can't do much about the keypad but I had an idea to help the components in the can. I'm thinking of installing a light bulb or other small source of heat inside the box and using the temperature sensor that is built into the keypad to turn it on when the temp reaches a certain point.
 
What do you guys think? First of all is this at all necessary? Will the cold temps be a problem? Do you have any ideas for a ehat source beter than a small incandescent light bulb?
 
Mike.

 

[pete_c]

I think that you will be OK.  I had an Alarm sub panel in my detached garage in the 1980's and had no issues with it.  The garage was not insulated from the weather and would get very cold sometimes.

 

[ano]

The battery might be a problem. Battery capacity decreases with the temps, so a battery that may have provided 8 hours of backup power at 70 might provide 2 hours at -10. If you could keep the battery warm, that would be helpful.

 

[Del91574]

Mike, since you're local to me I'll give you absolutes. I've crossed this bridge many times in state.
 
It pushes the envelope on an M1 KP and unfortunately becomes a necessary evil. Preferred method for unheated garage would be a KPAS.
 
A regular KP will function, although it's lifespan can be affected. As long as there's not extreme humidity, it's doable. The LCD's will slow down significantly during the cold months.
 
The batteries need to be SIGNIFICANTLY derated, especially in the case of the M1 and any field devices running of them and a separate power supply. Not just for cold, but also for heat. The 212S is a switching power supply so that's part of the battle. It is unclear (I haven't had to push one in an external building) if there is a voltage loss when running on DC only; Most supplies lose a volt in the conversion unless they specifically state 0V drop. As I said before, the LBC and Elk's white paper for Altronix supplies is because of me and an install up the road from me (and a 6 hour conference call with engineers after many emails and other calls).
 
Fact: The batteries are going to be the largest consideration.
Fact: It is possible to run the system with chargers in the field
Fact: The batteries will run over current when hot and under when cold
Fact: Temperature is going to affect the charging circuit
Fact: The batteries need to be derated and capacity oversized; Specifically, on the M1, your data bus peripherals on the M1 need to exceed the standby time the system is calculated.
Fact: All system standby times should be calculated appropriately and include the standard industry cushion of 20% (120% of total system load).
Fact: You can add silicone stick on heating pads within the enclosure, however you do need to really plan your layout and wattage consumed. You also need to factor in where they get powered from in addition to the calculations for the system running with derated batteries (assuming a power outage and the heaters are NOT on UPS).
Fact: It is easier and cheaper to do the calcs to keep the aux supply running for longer than the panel's standby than it is to buy all that is needed to keep them warm OR keep the electronics warm.

 

[mikefamig]

Mike, since you're local to me I'll give you absolutes. I've crossed this bridge many times in state.
 
It pushes the envelope on an M1 KP and unfortunately becomes a necessary evil. Preferred method for unheated garage would be a KPAS.
 
A regular KP will function, although it's lifespan can be affected. As long as there's not extreme humidity, it's doable. The LCD's will slow down significantly during the cold months.
 
The batteries need to be SIGNIFICANTLY derated, especially in the case of the M1 and any field devices running of them and a separate power supply. Not just for cold, but also for heat. The 212S is a switching power supply so that's part of the battle. It is unclear (I haven't had to push one in an external building) if there is a voltage loss when running on DC only; Most supplies lose a volt in the conversion unless they specifically state 0V drop. As I said before, the LBC and Elk's white paper for Altronix supplies is because of me and an install up the road from me (and a 6 hour conference call with engineers after many emails and other calls).
 
Fact: The batteries are going to be the largest consideration.
Fact: It is possible to run the system with chargers in the field
Fact: The batteries will run over current when hot and under when cold
Fact: Temperature is going to affect the charging circuit
Fact: The batteries need to be derated and capacity oversized; Specifically, on the M1, your data bus peripherals on the M1 need to exceed the standby time the system is calculated.
Fact: All system standby times should be calculated appropriately and include the standard industry cushion of 20% (120% of total system load).
Fact: You can add silicone stick on heating pads within the enclosure, however you do need to really plan your layout and wattage consumed. You also need to factor in where they get powered from in addition to the calculations for the system running with derated batteries (assuming a power outage and the heaters are NOT on UPS).
Fact: It is easier and cheaper to do the calcs to keep the aux supply running for longer than the panel's standby than it is to buy all that is needed to keep them warm OR keep the electronics warm.

 
DELInstallations
 
Thanks, Good information but to tell you the truth I'll be pretty happy if the system runs well under normal power conditions, power outages aside. I have plans to install a whole house standby generator at some point in the not to distant future. There is also very little load on the garage power supply. The zones themselves use little power and there will only be two 10ma motion detectors when I'm done.
 
if you recall I did have an 18ah battery attached to the p212s in the garage (it calls for 12ah) and when the power supply failed you suggested that the larger battery may have been overloading the battery charger and may have caused the failure. I ended up replacing the power supply and installed a smaller 12ah battery. Are you suggesting I go back to the 18ah battery?
 
I don't know what you mean by :switching power supply". What can you tell me about this  Altronix white paper? Are there benefits to the Altronix vs p212s or visa versa?
 
Mike.

 

[RAL]

I don't know what you mean by :switching power supply".

 
 
There are two basic types of power supply designs:  linear and switching.   Linear power supplies tend to be fairly simple, but are rather inefficient in generating the output voltages.  They are usually only about 30% efficient, and all the lost energy is wasted as heat.  Switching power supplies are much more efficient (anywhere from 60 to 95%), but are more complicated and require more components.  That tends to make them more susceptible to environmental conditions.

 

[Del91574]

For reading: http://www.elkproducts.com/support/tech-note_965.html

I am unable to locate the Altronix note since they redesigned their site.
 
You need to be very careful with generators and alarm equipment, especially residential grade hardware. Electronics do not like frequency variations and noise on the AC lines.....causes a LOT of issues. I deal weekly with multiple sites that have massive generators that are tested weekly that have very sophisticated equipment for monitoring and controlling them...VFD's and the like. There are constant issues with FACP's and access panels that are on UPS/standby power after the gen tests. Consider the size and complexity of these generators that are supplying power to critical equipment (lifesaving and other) compared to a small residential unit.
 
I'm at a loss, if you don't have any draw out in the field, then why the need for such a large supply and battery? It doesn't make sense. If your draw is that small and you direct buried, you might as well just run everything off the supply and installed it within the house and eliminate that design issue (unless there is a large distance and significant voltage loss).
 
You need to be realistic with your standby time on the panel M1. How long are you intending on the unit to last without commercial power? Have you done the calcs? In the case of the 212S, you were given a maximum battery size by Elk, you can't exceed that number so you're going to need to derate the standby time for the lowest temperature the supply is going to see while maintaining the 20% safety cushion. Now you have that number, so that's going to need to be a higher standby time than your M1 standby time otherwise you're going to have trouble....When the M1 loses expanders with devices on them, especially security, or they're rebooting as the remote system is at it's threshold for the devices running (M1, about 12V is when things start getting funky) then you're not going to like the event log and the notifications, especially if the system is monitored.
 
I have about 10 pages of CS traffic from a single system where the tech note came from, with remote devices and power supply that I missed the derating factor and chose a unit that lost voltage upon conversion...then had battery sag, the LBC switch issue AND devices rebooting and going offline causing phantom alarms and system traffic. Not a pretty site (and shame on me for not noticing the fine specs of the supply and missing the derating to have the supply last less time than the panel).

After doing the calcs and comparing it to the M1, if it doesn't meet your standby time spec without commercial power, then you have a design issue and the 212S is the wrong unit for your application.

As far as derating factors, almost every battery manufacturer provides tables on their product, but usually it is a very significant factor, even up to 30-40% of listed rating.

 

[mikefamig]

There are two basic types of power supply designs:  linear and switching.   Linear power supplies tend to be fairly simple, but are rather inefficient in generating the output voltages.  They are usually only about 30% efficient, and all the lost energy is wasted as heat.  Switching power supplies are much more efficient (anywhere from 60 to 95%), but are more complicated and require more components.  That tends to make them more susceptible to environmental conditions.

RAL Thanks.
 
The linear power supply is no doubt the schematic that I vaguely remember from when I was trying to learn what I could learn about fixing car radios. I became a software guy when things went digital.
 
Mike,.

 

[mikefamig]

For reading: http://www.elkproducts.com/support/tech-note_965.html

I am unable to locate the Altronix note since they redesigned their site.
 
You need to be very careful with generators and alarm equipment, especially residential grade hardware. Electronics do not like frequency variations and noise on the AC lines.....causes a LOT of issues. I deal weekly with multiple sites that have massive generators that are tested weekly that have very sophisticated equipment for monitoring and controlling them...VFD's and the like. There are constant issues with FACP's and access panels that are on UPS/standby power after the gen tests. Consider the size and complexity of these generators that are supplying power to critical equipment (lifesaving and other) compared to a small residential unit.

I'm thinking of a 20kw Kohler or Onan standby generator and plan to talk to the manufacturer and installer about how clean the power is and what their experience has been with alarm systems. We had Tower Generator here in Connecticut install a Kohler in the inlaws house last year and are very happy with it so far but they have no alarm system.
 

I'm at a loss, if you don't have any draw out in the field, then why the need for such a large supply and battery? It doesn't make sense. If your draw is that small and you direct buried, you might as well just run everything off the supply and installed it within the house and eliminate that design issue (unless there is a large distance and significant voltage loss).

I have considered powering everything from the control but decided to use the p212s for future expansion and so that I don't have to worry about voltage drop. It will be easy enough to try running from the control once I have the system stable.
 

You need to be realistic with your standby time on the panel M1. How long are you intending on the unit to last without commercial power? Have you done the calcs? In the case of the 212S, you were given a maximum battery size by Elk, you can't exceed that number so you're going to need to derate the standby time for the lowest temperature the supply is going to see while maintaining the 20% safety cushion. Now you have that number, so that's going to need to be a higher standby time than your M1 standby time otherwise you're going to have trouble....When the M1 loses expanders with devices on them, especially security, or they're rebooting as the remote system is at it's threshold for the devices running (M1, about 12V is when things start getting funky) then you're not going to like the event log and the notifications, especially if the system is monitored.

No I have not calculated stanby time partly because I was lazy and partly because there is so little load on the system. It didn't seem necessary but I wasn't considering the effect of cold temps.
 

I have about 10 pages of CS traffic from a single system where the tech note came from, with remote devices and power supply that I missed the derating factor and chose a unit that lost voltage upon conversion...then had battery sag, the LBC switch issue AND devices rebooting and going offline causing phantom alarms and system traffic. Not a pretty site (and shame on me for not noticing the fine specs of the supply and missing the derating to have the supply last less time than the panel).

This makes me want to cut out the external power supply altogether and run everything from the control power.
 

After doing the calcs and comparing it to the M1, if it doesn't meet your standby time spec without commercial power, then you have a design issue and the 212S is the wrong unit for your application.

As far as derating factors, almost every battery manufacturer provides tables on their product, but usually it is a very significant factor, even up to 30-40% of listed rating.

 
Can you tell me what I should expect to happen if the external power fails before the control power? What happens when the control see the devices missing?
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

Put it this way, the sites I deal with have generators in the high Mw range.They produce enough power to run their site in "island mode" independent of the commercial power or loadshed some non-important items. Very high dollar equipment attached to the UPS/emergency power panels, and they still get squirrly after genset testing, so it's the nature of the beast....all you need to do is have the power fluctuate off the 60 Hz mark and funny things are going to happen. The worse it is, the more pronounced it becomes, then factor in anything that happens before, during or after the transfer switch kicks in (assuming no manual or hand operation).
 
If you have a >100~200' run, then voltage drop really isn't going to be that significant unless your output voltage is too close to the threshold, and in that case, you should look into oversizing feed conductors unless you have exceptionally high current draw on a single pair going to the panel.
 
If the run is on the short side, you can loadshed the panel into the aux supply and then simply feed the power out to the remote location and negate the temperature considerations for a lot of equipment.
 
In the case of the M1, the panel does not like remote boards connected to the bus with voltage sag below 12VDC. When that happens, the panel gets into a push-pull situation where the panel attempts to keep the devices running but the electronics start a reboot cycle, shutdown and lather, rinse, repeat, until the boards don't have enough voltage to run. In the specific case of a XIN, it will reboot and each time, generate a missing device/expander failure in addition to all the connected zones going into alarm if the system is armed or fire alarm going off if those sorts of devices are connected. In dialer terms, each event will be dialed to the CS and reported until swinger shutdown is hit (if enabled) or the XIN stops running altogether. It's not pretty to the CS and it'll blast a couple hundred events into the log in a heartbeat.
 
With the M1 (and every other system out there that has peripherals powered independently of the main panel) the aux devices and supplies should have a longer standby than the panel to avoid all sorts of alarms and troubles if the main panel keeps running and field devices drop out. Really what should be considered a best practice/design element where ever possible or practicable.

 

[mikefamig]

I'm at a loss, if you don't have any draw out in the field, then why the need for such a large supply and battery? It doesn't make sense. If your draw is that small and you direct buried, you might as well just run everything off the supply and installed it within the house and eliminate that design issue (unless there is a large distance and significant voltage loss).

When designing this system I felt that it was reasonable to spend the price of a p212s and battery to ensure that I had enough room for future expansion and to ensure that I didn't overload the 1amp ps on the control. I had no idea of the complications it would add to the system. I just assumed that it was all Elk equipment and that it would be a seemless add-on, but then I should have learned by now to never assume anything. It was my fist design and I not only didn't have all the answers, I didn't even know the right questions to ask. Live and learn.
 
I like your advise to simplify the system and  after doing some arithmetic in my head I believe that I can remove the second power supply altogether. I'll o that as soon as I consider the system to be stable.
 
The system has been running great with the wireless adapter removed. I have had zero data bus errors for days and if I accept what Elk said about the errant chime being "the way the system is operating" to mean that it is normal then I am ready to start moving forward again.
 
Here is Elks response regarding the errant chime:
 
[SIZE=11pt]At this time this is the way the system is operating and I’ve forwarded my findings to Engineering and our Product Manager for review. If you have a non Entry / Exit Zone assigned to a different Area not secure or violated the system does not speak the violated zone when arming. [/SIZE]
 
As soon as I can clarify that statement to mean what I think it means I will go ahead with removing the second power supply and then getting the wireless adapter working.
 
Mike.

 

[Digger]

Mike,

If you need more power than the M1 provides I suggest you locate the PS212 and battery in the main buildings conditioned space. I assume you garage is within a 100 ft or so of the main building. I have done installs upgrading to the larger 28" cabinet and repurpose the 14" for additional power. In a few cases I mounted the smaller cabinet and ran the 4 wire buss through it to allow for future upgrades if ever needed.

 

[mikefamig]

Mike, If you need more power than the M1 provides I suggest you locate the PS212 and battery in the main buildings conditioned space. I assume you garage is within a 100 ft or so of the main building. I have done installs upgrading to the larger 28" cabinet and repurpose the 14" for additional power. In a few cases I mounted the smaller cabinet and ran the 4 wire buss through it to allow for future upgrades if ever needed.

Digger:
 
Thanks, this was also recommended by DELInstallations earlier and I will go that way if and when it becomes necessary. Right now and in the foreseeable future I can run teh entire system with the 1amp ps on the control. I plan to disconnect the p212s and put it on the shelf and it will be there if and when I need it.
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

Don't forget to plan the loading on the control must be done in alarm condition +20% when figuring out current draw.
 
The note from Elk sounds like a bad copy/paste and grammar error (without knowing the chain of reported issues and verbiage).