Apologies and another question

Are you changing the rules as you add them back?
 
The reason I ask is that doing so adds variables, particularly if the errant chime comes back. I would have added them back just as they were before; preferably one at a time with some duration between.
 
If you were able to get all rules added with no errant chime, it would seemingly have been a hardware issue. If the errant chime came back, it would point to a bug with the software/firmware WRT the rules.
 
drvnbysound said:
Are you changing the rules as you add them back?
 
The reason I ask is that doing so adds variables, particularly if the errant chime comes back. I would have added them back just as they were before; preferably one at a time with some duration between.
 
If you were able to get all rules added with no errant chime, it would seemingly have been a hardware issue. If the errant chime came back, it would point to a bug with the software/firmware WRT the rules.
Good morning
 
Aside from the auto arming I have added all rules as they were.Initially I liked your suggersted change to the auto arming rule but it didn't work out so now the auto arming is also just as it was in the beginning.
 
Mike.
 
Got it. I'd just hate for you to go through all of this exercise to find the errant chimes come back in the future and have to start over...
 
drvnbysound said:
Got it. I'd just hate for you to go through all of this exercise to find the errant chimes come back in the future and have to start over...
I wouldn't be surprised at all if they do come back being that I haven't identified the problem. As a matter of fact I'll never know what was causing it unless they do come back and provide a new clue to go on.
 
Mike.
 
drvnbysound said:
If you were able to get all rules added with no errant chime, it would seemingly have been a hardware issue. If the errant chime came back, it would point to a bug with the software/firmware WRT the rules.
Seemingly being the key word here....that is circumstantial evidence. I need a smoking gun to say that I know the cause of the problem. The twa went away and the errant chime went away hence that proves that the twa is the cause of the problem.....NOT.
 
What if it is a combination of the twa and the m1xrftw together that have a conflict? What if it was a power/load problem and removing the twa got rid of the symptom by removing some load? You would be condemning the twa when it was really the p212s not suplying enough power for the twa to perform properly.
 
Etc etc etc
 
Mike.
 
mikefamig said:
Seemingly being the key word here....that is circumstantial evidence. I need a smoking gun to say that I know the cause of the problem. The twa went away and the errant chime went away hence that proves that the twa is the cause of the problem.....NOT.
 
What if it is a combination of the twa and the m1xrftw together that have a conflict?
 
Other people have posted that they also have TWA and XRFTW together and don't get that result.
 
 
mikefamig said:
What if it was a power/load problem and removing the twa got rid of the symptom by removing some load?
 
I have TWA running on VAUX of a system and don't have the problem.
 
I understand what you are saying though. That's why I was hoping that you were adding each thing, hardware and/or software (rules), back one at a time, just as you had them before. Simply, reducing the variables of change in hopes that you can find something that results in a determination of what causes the errant chime - as much as you probably don't want it back.

 
 
After a good long run without problems my system had an auto restart this morning with all of the zones on the xin in the garage bypassing. About an hour after that I heard a double beep which means that there was an errant chime but I am set to tone chimes so I don't know which zone was reported. It is pretty safe to assume that it was the family room door because I have removed it's magnet to assure that one zone is always violated. I have switched the chime to voice and will wait and see what happens.
 
Yesterday I added two SA UPB dimmers and exported/imported the upstart file. Two days ago I replaced the PIM-E with and xsp and PIM. Shortly before that I added rules to close the garage doors automatically based on time, motion and arm state.
 
I'm going to sit it out for another day or two and then start reversing the lighting and rules. I am not removing the UPB switches from the wall but could remove them from the lighting section in elkrp.
 
Mike.
 
I had a major discovery with the system yesterday after having the recent auto startup. The log showd a keypad restart so I decided to remove the garage keypad to inspect it's wiring splices. As I was removing it from the wall and pulling the wires from behind the sheetrock the lights on the keypad blinked off and on. I had checked here before by wiggling the wires and didn't see any problem but sure enough there was two bad connecions and one of them was the power.
 
These splices were done with the B Type crimp connectors that come with the keypad and I crimped them with a flat plier. I've never used or even seen these connectors prior to installing the Elk but learned to crimp them online.  I did not strip the wires before crimping. Is that the correct procedure? What's the correct way to crimp these things?
 
I have removed the keypad and unplugged the cat5 from the DBH and re enrolled the devcies. I'll let it run this way for a while and see what happens. I may have finally found my smoking gun.
 
Mike.
 
The Dolphin connectors have tiny little teeth inside that are supposed to pierce the insulation on the wire, making it unnecessary to strip the wire first.  Dolphin says they will work with 16-24 AWG wire.   Still, I know many people do strip the wires anyway.
 
If the wires are unstripped, then you really need to crimp them well to get the teeth to penetrate the insulation. 
 
I use a pair of crimping pliers similar to these Channelock crimpers.  With a plain, flat pair of pliers it's difficult to crimp them tightly enough.
 
Dolphin has two different tools they recommend, the DC-4141 and DC-500F.  I've tried crimpers similar to the DC-500F and find that it is very hard to get a good crimp with them.
 
RAL said:
The Dolphin connectors have tiny little teeth inside that are supposed to pierce the insulation on the wire, making it unnecessary to strip the wire first.  Dolphin says they will work with 16-24 AWG wire.   Still, I know many people do strip the wires anyway.
 
If the wires are unstripped, then you really need to crimp them well to get the teeth to penetrate the insulation. 
 
I use a pair of crimping pliers similar to these Channelock crimpers.  With a plain, flat pair of pliers it's difficult to crimp them tightly enough.
 
Dolphin has two different tools they recommend, the DC-4141 and DC-500F.  I've tried crimpers similar to the DC-500F and find that it is very hard to get a good crimp with them.
 
Thanks, I have crimping tools for both insulated and non insulated connectors and should have used one. I'm going to solder the splices and use some heat shrink tubing and be done with it.
 
Mike.
 
RAL said:
The Dolphin connectors have tiny little teeth inside that are supposed to pierce the insulation on the wire, making it unnecessary to strip the wire first.  Dolphin says they will work with 16-24 AWG wire.   Still, I know many people do strip the wires anyway.
 
If the wires are unstripped, then you really need to crimp them well to get the teeth to penetrate the insulation. 
 
I use a pair of crimping pliers similar to these Channelock crimpers.  With a plain, flat pair of pliers it's difficult to crimp them tightly enough.
 
Dolphin has two different tools they recommend, the DC-4141 and DC-500F.  I've tried crimpers similar to the DC-500F and find that it is very hard to get a good crimp with them.
Without getting into all of this, there is a bunch of misinformation here. I'll provide the history and then the procedures.
 
You never want to use pliers, the butt end of dykes or a small crimp on the end. That folds the teeth over, and while not critical on a stripped splice, it does away with many benefits of the engineering behind the connector.
 
First, B-connectors are a Bell system item. They date back to the 50's and 60's. They are designed for 3-4 solid conductors, unstripped, up to 22 AWG. That's the engineering on them, period. No mismatched conductor sizes otherwise the crimp is uneven. Will they work on a pair of 18 AWG solid, sure, but if you "stack" the conductors in them, that's a sure way to get into trouble, as the conductors are supposed to lay side by side on the "long" side. They only fell out of favor because the telco guys' bad habits are hard to break in the field and UR/UY connectors were introduced by 3M at an attractive price (subsidized) so the Telco's did what any business would do.... It's no different than why cable lacing fell out of vogue compared to ty-raps, yet lacing are still prevalent in the industry on many projects.
 
They are designed to be parallel flattened/compressed to a known dimension using a tool like this: http://www.gmptools.com/nf/85330.htm
 
I own 3 of these tools (all ex-Bell system tools, 1959, 1963 and 1974 as stamped on them). They work beautifully on the caps if you need to get it done right and "to spec".
 
This forces the teeth inside to cut through the insulation and into the copper making a gas tight connection when done properly (no sealant needed). If you over crimp, you flatten the teeth and they are worthless. When crimped correctly the splice is just as good or better than a soldered connection (Bell system docs) same as a wire wrap vs. physical connection to a terminal. The sealant filled ones are just an "extra insurance" policy and usually not necessary anywhere but outside or areas subject to moisture....think outside pedestals or similar.
 
That said, in the alarm industry, techs usually only use them as crimp connection insulators, stripping and twisting the pairs and then crimping over them. You should still use an "insulated" die to crimp as to not completely flatten the teeth and take advantage of the design of the cap, not mentioning you can remove the cap easily if needed. The uninsulated die has great potential to damage the conductors and usually pierces the insulating covering of the B-connector and shows inexperience.....I've had more issues with those connections in the field, typically done by those that twist wire nuts for a living.
 
While I own the real tools, I also use a T&B 112M for quick field work, and have been using the same tool since '99 with very little rework in the field to connections.
 
DELInstallations said:
Without getting into all of this, there is a bunch of misinformation here. I'll provide the history and then the procedures.
 
You never want to use pliers, the butt end of dykes or a small crimp on the end. That folds the teeth over, and while not critical on a stripped splice, it does away with many benefits of the engineering behind the connector.
 
First, B-connectors are a Bell system item. They date back to the 50's and 60's. They are designed for 3-4 solid conductors, unstripped, up to 22 AWG. That's the engineering on them, period. No mismatched conductor sizes otherwise the crimp is uneven. Will they work on a pair of 18 AWG solid, sure, but if you "stack" the conductors in them, that's a sure way to get into trouble, as the conductors are supposed to lay side by side on the "long" side. They only fell out of favor because the telco guys' bad habits are hard to break in the field and UR/UY connectors were introduced by 3M at an attractive price (subsidized) so the Telco's did what any business would do.... It's no different than why cable lacing fell out of vogue compared to ty-raps, yet lacing are still prevalent in the industry on many projects.
 
They are designed to be parallel flattened/compressed to a known dimension using a tool like this: http://www.gmptools.com/nf/85330.htm
 
I own 3 of these tools (all ex-Bell system tools, 1959, 1963 and 1974 as stamped on them). They work beautifully on the caps if you need to get it done right and "to spec".
 
This forces the teeth inside to cut through the insulation and into the copper making a gas tight connection when done properly (no sealant needed). If you over crimp, you flatten the teeth and they are worthless. When crimped correctly the splice is just as good or better than a soldered connection (Bell system docs) same as a wire wrap vs. physical connection to a terminal. The sealant filled ones are just an "extra insurance" policy and usually not necessary anywhere but outside or areas subject to moisture....think outside pedestals or similar.
 
That said, in the alarm industry, techs usually only use them as crimp connection insulators, stripping and twisting the pairs and then crimping over them. You should still use an "insulated" die to crimp as to not completely flatten the teeth and take advantage of the design of the cap, not mentioning you can remove the cap easily if needed. The uninsulated die has great potential to damage the conductors and usually pierces the insulating covering of the B-connector and shows inexperience.....I've had more issues with those connections in the field, typically done by those that twist wire nuts for a living.
 
While I own the real tools, I also use a T&B 112M for quick field work, and have been using the same tool since '99 with very little rework in the field to connections.
 
Hey Del
 
Being as familiar as you are with my plight, do you believe that a bad connection on the rs-485 could be the cause of restarts and errant chimes? I haven't forgotten what you've said about the restarts being caused by the power supply dropping below a specified voltage but no one has approached explaining the errant chimes yet. This message thread is 21 pages long and we've talked about a whole bunch of things that could be going on. In your professional opinion can it simply have been this bad connection all along?
 
Mike.
 
I just watched a video of how to crimp them and laughably (and Dolphin is just as much to blame) the die they used is incorrect though the tool is theirs! Their tool is no different than a ratcheting insulated terminal crimper.
 
As far as why and what is going on, I don't think a bad 485 connection would manifest this way, or it "shouldn't". From the last time I had to have a long discussion with Elk about restarts (related to voltage sag) they are only indicative of the board rebooting, so in theory, if the board(s) never lost power, there should be no reboot. Comm failure, yes, but restart, no. Of course, with any system, the physical items are the most overlooked and can cause people to head down the path of blaming hardware and software.
 
As I've yet to install an Elk branded RF (only reason why I would be for fobs and external status, but I usually install a bicolored LED in a soffit instead) I'm not sure off the top of my head if the receiver has an indicator for RF traffic/flooding. Honeywell's equipment has one on their 5881 RF, but I don't recall seeing one on any of the Elk units (GE or Honeywell) so maybe you're getting some interference on your RF?
 
DELInstallations said:
I just watched a video of how to crimp them and laughably (and Dolphin is just as much to blame) the die they used is incorrect though the tool is theirs! Their tool is no different than a ratcheting insulated terminal crimper.
 
As far as why and what is going on, I don't think a bad 485 connection would manifest this way, or it "shouldn't". From the last time I had to have a long discussion with Elk about restarts (related to voltage sag) they are only indicative of the board rebooting, so in theory, if the board(s) never lost power, there should be no reboot. Comm failure, yes, but restart, no. Of course, with any system, the physical items are the most overlooked and can cause people to head down the path of blaming hardware and software.
 
As I've yet to install an Elk branded RF (only reason why I would be for fobs and external status, but I usually install a bicolored LED in a soffit instead) I'm not sure off the top of my head if the receiver has an indicator for RF traffic/flooding. Honeywell's equipment has one on their 5881 RF, but I don't recall seeing one on any of the Elk units (GE or Honeywell) so maybe you're getting some interference on your RF?
 
I have considered the fact that the M1 could be causing RF interference with xrftw. The transceiver should be at least four feet away from the M1 according to the installation manual and mine is only about a foot away due to space constrictions. Being that I had good signals and communications with the wireless sensors I thought that there was no problem but recently it occurred to me that it may not be a simple matter of reaching the sensor or not.
 
I will move the tx away from the M1 control.
 
Mike.
 
If the XRFTW senses RF interference it will be displayed on the keypad as "RF Jam Detected". The XRFTW states that this feature is required for UL installations; this can be disabled via Globals. I don't recall what specific Global it is, but it's listed in RP under the G29-G42 tab, at the very bottom - "UL Wireless Jam Detect"
 
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