Apologies and another question

[drvnbysound]

I don't think that any of us know the inner workings of the Elk, it is not information that is published publicly. Elk however does have that info and has seen my rules at their request. They did not report any problems with them.
 
They did however some weeks later request that I erase all rules and test. It was a great suggestion and I wish that I had thought of it myself.
 
Mike.

 
Sure, that was my point... they only they would know for certain if any issue would be caused. At the same time, something else that would be beneficial is if they would setup a system with the same rules, and see if could replicate the issue on their end. You've obviously had the issue now on 2 separate boards.
 
The erasing of the rules, led me to the other suggestion earlier in the thread... to leave the rules off and add back the hardware you want and see if the errant chimes come back. If they don't, it would be pretty easy for me to point the issue at the rules (software).

 

[mikefamig]

Sure, that was my point... they only they would know for certain if any issue would be caused. At the same time, something else that would be beneficial is if they would setup a system with the same rules, and see if could replicate the issue on their end. You've obviously had the issue now on 2 separate boards.
 
The erasing of the rules, led me to the other suggestion earlier in the thread... to leave the rules off and add back the hardware you want and see if the errant chimes come back. If they don't, it would be pretty easy for me to point the issue at the rules (software).

 
While I understand your reasoning about installing the twa I don't agree that this is as black and white as you make it out to be. Don't forget that there is a very large gray area between hardware and software called firmware. The twa could be the cause of my problem with the rules (if I do in fact have a problem with rules) and visa/versa by invoking firmware functions that are otherwise dormant.
 
I have also changed my opinion of the twa altogether. It uses more resources than it is worth to me and was a part of my original design that is unnecessary.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

My day job as an electrical engineer consists of me working to integrate various technologies into larger systems - not only the design phases of hardware and software, but installation, troubleshooting, maintenance and sustainment as well. So, I'm very aware of the aspects you mention. I'm also aware that I have installed a system with the same components (including the TWA) and it's running with out any issues, which leads to believe it's not an issue with hardware (or associated firmware) incompatibility.

 

[mikefamig]

My day job as an electrical engineer consists of me working to integrate various technologies into larger systems - not only the design phases of hardware and software, but installation, troubleshooting, maintenance and sustainment as well. So, I'm very aware of the aspects you mention. I'm also aware that I have installed a system with the same components (including the TWA) and it's running with out any issues, which leads to believe it's not an issue with hardware (or associated firmware) incompatibility.

 
Good to know.
 
So if I did re-install the twa in the system and it ran well would that lead me to believe more strongly that the problems have  to do with the rules? If we accept as fact that re-introducing the rules causes the problem to return what does that prove? Couldn't it still be a firmware/OS bug or a hardware that is only functioning when the rules are invoked or both? And if I install the rules first and it runs well and then install the twa sand get errors - again what does that prove?
 
It is going to be impossible to come to a conclusive answer given the fact that we do not know the operating system and even if it was made public I don not wish to learn it. There is a limit to the amount of time that I'll spend just trying to prove a point and the twa is becoming more dispensable than my time. I've been around the block with this errant chime problem with the help of some pretty strong resources both here and at Elk in the past months and nobody can say that I haven't given it the good old college try.
 
I truly believe at this point that there are Elk systems out there in the world that have the chime turned off or set to tone and the users don't notice that it beeps now and then for no good reason or they just ignore it. The system works fine otherwise.
 
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

First, if you installed the TWA, again with no rules... and it ran for a week with no errant chimes, I'd say that the hardware and installation are good. If the errant chimes returned, I'd say that you have a hardware or installation issue.
 
Second, if the above was successful for X period (a week?), then you add in your rules, and the errant chime returned. I'd point to your rules. If you add your rules, and the errant chime is still gone, I'd say the source of the issue is undetermined, but it's resolved... 
 
I will note that of the systems I've installed, I don't know anyone use leaves the CHIME feature ON at all times. I don't use it at all personally - I find it annoying. So yeah, if I received an errant chime, I'd 1) notice it and 2) say it's an issue.

 

[mikefamig]

First, if you installed the TWA, again with no rules... and it ran for a week with no errant chimes, I'd say that the hardware and installation are good. If the errant chimes returned, I'd say that you have a hardware or installation issue.
 
Second, if the above was successful for X period (a week?), then you add in your rules, and the errant chime returned. I'd point to your rules. If you add your rules, and the errant chime is still gone, I'd say the source of the issue is undetermined, but it's resolved... 
 
I will note that of the systems I've installed, I don't know anyone use leaves the CHIME feature ON at all times. I don't use it at all personally - I find it annoying. So yeah, if I received an errant chime, I'd 1) notice it and 2) say it's an issue.

Errant Chimes do not occur unless chimes is turned on

 

[Neurorad]

Was it the same zone chiming each time?

 

[mikefamig]

Was it the same zone chiming each time?

No but it has always been a zone that is violated.

 

[felixwhite]

could anyone help with an Elk M1 programming question?
 
could anyone help with an Elk M1 programming question? I use an Elk M1 to control my in floor heat of a new home. I use the following rules for each zone..
 
"whenever every 300 seconds / and kitchen 13 actual temp is less then 80 degrees then turn ouputput kitchen on"
 
"whenever every 300 seconds / and kitchen 13 actual temp is greater then 82 degrees then turn ouputput kitchen off"
 
This works well but seems awkward ..is therte a simpler way to achive this? 
 
thanks!
 

 

[mikefamig]

could anyone help with an Elk M1 programming question?
 
could anyone help with an Elk M1 programming question? I use an Elk M1 to control my in floor heat of a new home. I use the following rules for each zone..
 
"whenever every 300 seconds / and kitchen 13 actual temp is less then 80 degrees then turn ouputput kitchen on"
 
"whenever every 300 seconds / and kitchen 13 actual temp is greater then 82 degrees then turn ouputput kitchen off"
 
This works well but seems awkward ..is therte a simpler way to achive this? 
 
thanks!

 
I looked at the install instructions for the elk temperature sensor and they used a similar rule to yours in their example.
 
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-m1ztsr-m1-zone-temperature-interface-with-7-ft-remote-probe
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

could anyone help with an Elk M1 programming question?
 
could anyone help with an Elk M1 programming question? I use an Elk M1 to control my in floor heat of a new home. I use the following rules for each zone..
 
"whenever every 300 seconds / and kitchen 13 actual temp is less then 80 degrees then turn ouputput kitchen on"
 
"whenever every 300 seconds / and kitchen 13 actual temp is greater then 82 degrees then turn ouputput kitchen off"
 
This works well but seems awkward ..is therte a simpler way to achive this? 
 
thanks!

 
Without getting this thread off topic, I'd suggest creating a new topic and posting the question in the Elk subforum here:
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/forum/42-elk-products-inc-elk/

 

[mikefamig]

Just looked over them again and come to another suggestion - this time on the rules regarding the auto-arming as they work with your counter. 
 
Currently you have:
 
Again, avoiding the need to check this every 5 minutes ... I'd suggest:
 
WHENEVER Motion 1 (Counter 1) CHANGES TO 0
      AND Garage (Area 2) ARM STATE = DISARMED
      AND THE TIME IS LATER THAN 30 MINUTES BEFORE SUNSET
            THEN ARM AREA(S) 2 TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY
 
WHENEVER Motion 1 (Counter 1) CHANGES TO 0
      AND Garage (Area 2) ARM STATE = DISARMED
      AND THE TIME IS EARLIER THAN AT SUNRISE
            THEN ARM AREA(S) 2 TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY

I liked this suggestion but after trying it learned that it doesn't work when there is no activity in the garage for longer than 30 minutes before sunset. The counter does not change to zero if it is already zero at 30 minutes before sunset so the rule doesn't trigger.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

I'd write a separate rule for that.
 
Whenever 30 minutes before sunset, and counter = 0....
 
Again, so the rule doesn't have to bother checking for this every X duration when it's really not necessary. However, you're requirements may differ.
 
Honestly, I don't care for auto door closing rules, because my car/bike/whatever may be straddling the break beam sensor. The only time I use them is when they relate to exit or stay modes, in which case I am effectively manually doing it. Then again, I also work in/around my garage as well and would hate for it to close each time there was 30 min or an hour duration of inactivity... for me to have to open it again.

 

[mikefamig]

I'd write a separate rule for that.
 
Whenever 30 minutes before sunset, and counter = 0....

That will only trigger at exactly 30 minutes before sunset. If I go in the garage after it is armed and leave again it will not arm again. Checking periodically like every 5 or ten minutes is the only way tha I can see to achieve what I want to achieve. I'm standing by my first version of the rule, it works to arm at 30 minutes before sunset and again any time after that and before sunrise if the garage is entered and exited.

Again, so the rule doesn't have to bother checking for this every X duration when it's really not necessary. However, you're requirements may differ.

We've already been down this road in an earlier message, It needs to be checked periodically that way to re-arm any time the garage is entered and the left at any time between sunset and sunrise. Not only at sunset.

Honestly, I don't care for auto door closing rules, because my car/bike/whatever may be straddling the break beam sensor. The only time I use them is when they relate to exit or stay modes, in which case I am effectively manually doing it. Then again, I also work in/around my garage as well and would hate for it to close each time there was 30 min or an hour duration of inactivity... for me to have to open it again.

Whether or not to automate the doors is another topic all together and a personal preference. If I am away for more than a half hour I'm good with the doors closing, it keeps the birds and rodents out.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Update for all of you who have been helping me along here.
 
The system has been running well for aver a week barring a little email glitch (but that's another story).
 
1 There have been no automatic restarts and I attribute that to the new larger aux power supply and cabling.
 
2 There have been no errant chimes, For that I removed the twa, all rules from the account, reset the system global setting 45, reinstalled the 5.3 firmware and re-installed the customer account.  I've been re-introducing the rules one or two at a time and so far so good. Only a few more to go and I should be fully installed by the weekend barring a problem returning.
 
I have also started installing a UPB network and so far have two exterior lights controlled by the elk. At this point I have a fully functioning alarm system. It is interesting that even with the errors that I was getting that the alarm always functioned properly as a security device. It even recovered from the system restarts without false alarm or any real problem and the errant chimes didn't seem to have any affect on the alarm system. It was just annoying.
 
Mike.