Apologies and another question

[mikefamig]

Cheaper to move the DBH, OVR, XIN and KP into the house, for troubleshooting, than buy a new long category cable. 

I would use a patch cable to test the buried cable, not the devices.

The TWA is currently not connected, and you tried removing the Elk wireless transceiver, those ruled out.

The two have never worked well together for any length of time and while I am not ruling them out I do not suspect them either. .
 

Rules, programming - did Elk get back to you about the rules?

They looked at my rules weeks ago and reported no problems

[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]After re-doing connections, I'd either start replacing devices on the bus, replace the DBHs, or get DEL to pay a visit, but I'm pretty sure you know that.[/SIZE]

You're late to this party, I have already checked and rechecked wiring. As for changing parts I am not ready to throw money at it like darts at a board.I need a good lot of evidence before I start spending hundreds of dollars hoping  I get lucky.
 
The system is running well right now with no rules and no twa and I am not touching anything for a few days. As I think I said earlier, if it runs well for a few days I will slowly add the rules back. If and when a symptom returns I will hopefully have a clue.
 

[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]Are you using stranded wire anywhere besides the 18 AWG for power?  Stray strands, and such.  I've read of some people using stranded category cable, but it's rare.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]I wish it were something that simple but no.[/SIZE]

 

[drvnbysound]

The system is running well right now with no rules and no twa and I am not touching anything for a few days. As I think I said earlier, if it runs well for a few days I will slowly add the rules back. If and when a symptom returns I will hopefully have a clue.

 
Have you thought about adding the hardware back and letting that run for a few days (or week) before adding the rules?

 

[mikefamig]

Have you thought about adding the hardware back and letting that run for a few days (or week) before adding the rules?

 
Good thought but I may just never connect the twa again. It uses a lot of power, it uses seven outputs and you can only listen-in in using a telephone. I originally thought that I would be able to listen in with ekeypad or m1togo or other software.
 
I'm not decided yet.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Something that is not obvious here or I may not have made clear:
 
When the errant chimes and auto start-ups appear it is usually after making a hardware change like adding the twa or changing the battery  That seems simple on the surface but you might think that removing that device would make the symptoms go away again. It does not.
 
This most recent occurrence was corrected by resetting the panel to factory settings which did not correct my first panel. It is like something is hosing up the programmable memory in the M1.I have rebuilt this system twice by resetting and adding devices one at a time and twice it has worked fine for a short period of time and then I would make some small change and the problems return.
 
I am testing rules this time because two of the recent restarts were very nearly at the same time of night. There is no system activity in the rules at this exact hour but there are some rules that are constantly checking for certain conditions and setting counters so there is activity on the board at all times.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Could an OVR output conductor be touching a (possibly grounded) GDO chassis?
 
The XEP has a ground conductor, within the serial port - and I'm guessing also within the Ethernet port - are those isolated from the control? Are you using a serial connection?
 
How is the power quality in your nape of the neck?  Any sags, that you know?  I guess the DC PS outputs wouldn't be much affected by those, though.
 
Have you tried [gently] blowing out dust/debris from the RJ45 ports?
 
You could re-crimp some of the category cable ends.  I know you said they looked good.  Same with the beanie/dolphin/yellow jacket splices.
 
Are you using factory-made category cables everywhere that you could?

Neurorad
 
you ask a lot of good questions but many of them have no definitive answer. How can I tell you that there is absolutely not one bad connection in a system with 16 zones and several devices. I can only tell you that I have gone around more than once. This needs to be trouble-shooted by following clues and with some logical path because replacing everything is just not feasible.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Elk has told me that they have never heard of a system just chiming for no apparent reason but I have found another member here at cocoontech that has had the same problem.
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/24802-weird-chime-and-tracking-origin/?hl=%2Belk+%2Bchimes#entry196900
 
Mike.

 

[Neurorad]

I think you and DEL said it's likely a power issue.  I'd redo the RS485 bus connections, specifically, and replace short interconnects with factory cables.
 
Looking at your drawing, that's not many at all.  Monoprice for cheap factory-made cat cables.
 
Could you be over-crimping the beanie/dolphin connectors?  Do you twist the strands first?
 
Use a magnifying glass to inspect the RJ45 female ports, for debris/bent pins.  Similarly, inspect the male connectors for bent pins (including the terminating resistors).
 
I recall there was a mention of ohms in this thread, but a search didn't bring this up specifically - did you check resistance at the bus A/B terminals, on the controller? (reference http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/10120-elk-added-mdbh-lost-keypad-why/?p=87650)
 
Are all the terminations T568A?  Did you cut a factory terminated end (possibly T568B), and mistakenly use the color coding from the manual for the flying leads?
 
Could you have mistakenly forgotten to remove a terminating jumper from the back of a keypad, installed long ago in a wall?
 
For the 200 foot category cable run, did you terminate as T568A on one end, and T568B on the other?  Or, account for the 'crossover' while using flying leads?

 

[Neurorad]

Is a zone chime the issue?  I thought it was a restart problem.

 

[mikefamig]

Neurorad
 
Do you understand that the system has been running well for a couple of days now in it's current configuration? Also Elk has made it clear to me that they do not believe that data bus errors are causing my symptoms.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

I may buy a few factory cables for the short runs and cut one end off of them to replace the short rs-485 cables.
 
Mike.

 

[RAL]

Elk has told me that they have never heard of a system just chiming for no apparent reason but I have found another member here at cocoontech that has had the same problem.
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/24802-weird-chime-and-tracking-origin/?hl=%2Belk+%2Bchimes#entry196900

 
Good detective work tracking down that thread!  I was surprised to see that I had posted to it, but somehow I didn't recall that it started with a chime problem. 
 
A couple of other thoughts come to mind.   Yesterday you said:
 

I am told that a bad data connection will not cause the system to auto start-up. Auto startup is caused when the supply voltage to the device falls below ~12v.

 
According to Elk, the M1 has a watchdog timer.  I assume that this could also cause an auto start-up if the hardware/firmware hangs for some reason.  It makes me wonder whether it's possible to tell the difference between a watchdog restart and a power restart.  That would be a good question to ask the folks at Elk.
 
It just doesn't seem like you could be having power problems on both your original M1 as well as the replacement. 
 
If it turns out that the restarts could be due to the watchdog timer, then that along with the errant chimes would make me suspicious that a firmware problem is a possible cause of your troubles.
 
 
 
 

 

 

[mikefamig]

RAL
 
Can you explain what the watch dog timer is? I've heard it mentioned but don't know how it works.
 
Mike.

 

[RAL]

A watchdog timer (also called a deadman timer) is timer that runs independently from the rest of the system and can be set up to generate a signal, such as a reset, when it expires.
 
Normally, if the system is healthy, the firmware will periodically reset the timer before it expires to prevent the reset.  But if the system gets hung up for some reason and can't continue to run, the watchdog timer will expire and reset it back to an operational state.

 

[mikefamig]

A watchdog timer (also called a deadman timer) is timer that runs independently from the rest of the system and can be set up to generate a signal, such as a reset, when it expires.
 
Normally, if the system is healthy, the firmware will periodically reset the timer before it expires to prevent the reset.  But if the system gets hung up for some reason and can't continue to run, the watchdog timer will expire and reset it back to an operational state.

Oh that's cool. It's kinda like windows blue screen of death but it recovers itself instead of just laying there belly up.

 

[mikefamig]

Good detective work tracking down that thread!  I was surprised to see that I had posted to it, but somehow I didn't recall that it started with a chime problem. 
 
A couple of other thoughts come to mind.   Yesterday you said:
 
 
According to Elk, the M1 has a watchdog timer.  I assume that this could also cause an auto start-up if the hardware/firmware hangs for some reason.  It makes me wonder whether it's possible to tell the difference between a watchdog restart and a power restart.  That would be a good question to ask the folks at Elk.

 
I don't wan Elk tech support to start feeling that I'm a pest but I will see what I can learn about the watchdog timer next time we talk.
 

It just doesn't seem like you could be having power problems on both your original M1 as well as the replacement. 

Don't forget the auxiliary power supply. One recent startup was on teh xin whicn is powered by the aux and then the next was on all zones involving both power supplies.

If it turns out that the restarts could be due to the watchdog timer, then that along with the errant chimes would make me suspicious that a firmware problem is a possible cause of your troubles.