Branded NVR vs. Home Built Unit

[RobNJ]

I am spawning off this NVR topic from my other post about getting a system, since that one was more focused on the camera layout. http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/28804-finally-a-reason-for-a-camera/
I appreciate all the input on that thread so far and I feel confident on my camera direction.
 
Debating the use of a branded NVR versus a home built unit.  Not that I am afraid of building, as I have always built my home PCs and family’s PCs.  My question is about initial cost to build and cost to operate, factoring in the size of the system.  If I was building a mega cam system, the PC built unit would be no question.

So for a system of 6-8 cameras, is a branded NVR “good enough” if the system is just for an average home use?  In looking around I found a unit by Samsung that feature wise looks pretty nice.  I have reviewed the manual and there are many key features included, but of course not as flexible as Blue Iris.  The operating wattage is 166W running 2 HDD and full 100W of POE, so this seems much lower than a PC.  Problem is there are no reviews around to get a feel for quality and operability. 
http://www.samsungsecurity.com/product/product_view.asp?idx=7281#FL040000
 
If I go the branded NVR route, any other make/model suggestions?  Hikvision comes to mind of course, but the other brands are unknown.
 
If I go home built, what would be the cost to built to this requirement?  drvnbysound, I know you have a preference for this, so looking for your input.
 
Thanks.

 

[bpwwer]

I'm curious about this also. I was looking a bunch of different NVR's ranging from the ultra cheap $40 boxes that need a USB hard drive attached (and all seemed to have pretty poor reviews) to ones in the $300 - $500 range.  I saw the samsung box but it wasn't clear what made it worth more some of the other boxes from Zmodo, Dahua, Hikvision, GW Security, Q-See, etc.  I decided to try something cheap and see what happens so I picked up one from Microseven for about $90 (without hard drive). I figure at that price, it's disposable if it doesn't work well.  I haven't turned it on yet, so nothing to report yet.

• 
   

 

[Del91574]

Depends on what you consider branded vs. grey....there's a lot of NVR's out there with small drives, but have integral POE switches (loose term) and for their own cameras, require no configuration, and minimal configuration for brand name items. Depends on what infrastructure you're providing vs. what is integral.

 

[drvnbysound]

I've built multiple PCs for dedicated NVR use - basically a Windows PC running BlueIris software. I feel that the flexibility that BI offers exceeds more valuable to me than an appliance-type NVR.
 
The main unknown I faced for a bit with the custom builds is knowing how the PC would perform with X number of cameras (at XX fps, resolution, etc). After doing a few of them I got a pretty good feeling for what to use in residential systems with 1-8 cameras or so and spec'ing a PC that wasn't always complete overkill for the job.
 
If you are planning for 2-4 cameras or so I would go with an i5 at a minimum (assuming you plan to run 1080p and 30fps). Once you really get around 6 cameras you will want to jump to an i7. Having said that I have an i7 machine, currently running 4 cameras and it's running at 24% CPU usage. I have plans to add 3-5 more cameras and don't expect any issue at all with CPU utilization. I have a good friend for whom I built a machine with some older parts I had (Core2Quad processor) that has 5 cameras right now. When he added the 5th camera (all with max settings) the CPU usage jumped to about 80%. He's since dropped the FPS on 2 of the cameras down to 20 and the CPU is back down to around ~65%. I could provide other numbers on other systems if desired...
 
Feel free to PM me any time if you have specific questions.

 

[RobNJ]

So with a home built, how do you get all feeds into the PC, using a multiport POE switch just before the NIC? Is this a bottleneck? Seems like it would be as you are going from X feeds into 1. With higher fps I would think this could be an issue.

 

[pete_c]

Here is a drawing for CCTV POE stuff which I googled up a few minutes ago. 
 
Googling average draw of a typical IP POE powered camera is around 12 watts. 
 
Google CCTV POE switches for more choices.
 
Specifications of the IP cameras will provide you with exact numbers. 
 
Purchase a POE switch which can handle the load of all of the cameras together.
 
Here utilize a Tycon mid span POE injector. This is a 24 port device with 3 power supplies.  I purchased this device used for less than $100.  Technical support from the company is very good.  I use this device to poe power my touch screen tabletop tablets.
 
I have a few smaller Tycon midspan injectors and POE switches purchased new that I have played with and happy with them.
 
I am currently utilizing two TP Link 24 port managed switches which are doing fine these days.  They also have a few POE switches (hi and low power per port 8 port POE switches).  I have a 4 port TP Link POE switch that has done OK and a few other generic POE switches which also do ok.
 

 
 
 

 

[drvnbysound]

So with a home built, how do you get all feeds into the PC, using a multiport POE switch just before the NIC? Is this a bottleneck? Seems like it would be as you are going from X feeds into 1. With higher fps I would think this could be an issue.

 
Bottleneck... meh, technically, sure.
 
(1) 1080p camera @ 30fps will output around 5-6Mbps, so 6 of them and you are only at ~35Mbps.
 
For most of the systems I've installed I've used this switch: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833127513
 
With a Gigabit connection to your NVR there is PLENTY of room for growth...

 

[pete_c]

The D-Link and TP-Link are very similiar.
 
Here is the TP-link similar 8 port Gb POE switch with a GUI / CLI for management for $126.  (well a little more features set). 
 
 
8-Port Gigabit Smart PoE Switch with 2 SFP Slots TL-SG2210P
 

• Features 8 PoE ports, with total PoE power budget of 53W and useful PoE power management features
• Gigabit Ethernet connections on all ports provide full speed of data transferring
• Integrated security strategy including 802.1Q VLAN, ACL, Port Security and Storm control help protect LAN area investment
•  L2/L3/L4 QoS and IGMP snooping optimize voice and video applications
• WEB/CLI managed modes, SNMP, RMON bring abundant management features
•  Innovative energy-efficient technology saves up to 50% of power consumption 

 
 

 

 
Here goof around a bit with ZoneMinder which is a free open source NVR.  Here is a modded screen shot.
 
Here originally started with Optex Combo cameras (with PIRs) and recently have gone to using all Grandstream IP HD cameras.  (playing with their NVR software which is on their NVR).  Mixing it a bit with Axis now and a Grandstream encoder / decoder, Grandstream NVR (in box still?) and the OmniPro stuff.
 
I also utilize Homeseer for some of the CCTV stuff.  Lately playing with time lapse on RPi2 and Grandstream OS.  Many Homeseer users are using Blue Iris these days and there is a Homeseer Plugin for Blue Iris.
 
BTW a software NVR lets you play more than a firmware NVR. 
 
Grandstream OS include SIP services.  Thinking now all of the new IP cams have email services, FTP uploading et al type of stuff. 
 

 

[TurboSam]

+1 for Blue Iris.  I also like and use Sighthound (FKA Vitamin D).  I especially like Sighthound's video analytic capabilities that give me more options than BI's motion detection. 
 
A lot depends on what you want out of your NVR/homebrew unit.  
 
I wanted immediate text and emails from certain (perimeter) cameras at all times (as well as live view and recording for all cameras), and went with these two software programs, CQC, and an NAS for recording capacity.

 

[elvisimprsntr]

ZoneMinder on an 5+ year old quad core 2 Linux machine for 4 WiFi IP cams. Eliminated the need to run PoE Cat5 everywhere or buy new cameras.

Cost:

Existing cameras - free
Repurposed 5 yo PC - free
Linux - free
ZoneMinder - free

 

[JonW]

Just made the decision to get Blue Iris.  It's on sale at Fry's for $43  http://www.frys.com/product/8052824
 
I'm going to set this up in a Windows Server 2012 VM and start migrating my cams to it.

 

[Del91574]

While everyone is talking about network, the larger thing to consider, especially if you're considering any cameras with any real bandwidth or image size and high FPS would be thoroughput to the NVR, especially if you're doing a BYO. Machines only have a finite amount of R/W capabilities, and especially so on low end PC's.

 

[RobNJ]

Just got off the phone with Samsung about this unit.  It is considered a professional grade, so took me some bouncing around between support centers to get answers.  
It will support cameras that are ONVIF and uses Profile-S.  So it looks like it would work with my Hikvision possible choice or any other quality camera.
 
I see the new point about bandwidth and this unit is : Recording Bandwidth 64Mbps, 2M 8 camera real-time recording.
On the network side it says:  Transmission Bandwidth Max. 128Mbps
 
So what would be a good target number?  I am not sure what the benchmark would be.

 

[Del91574]

You'd need to put the proposed cameras together and then do the calcs.
 
Consider what the image size is going to be, most likely in pixels or lines of res, then figure out a real FPS.
 
For example, I have a camera here where I am pushing out a stream at 2592 X 1944 pixels. (2MP). I'm only recording 4 streams at 640 X 480 (per stream, it's a fisheye virtual PTZ split into a quad) and reduce the quality a bit, as well as limit the FPS from 30 to 15 live; 10 alarm/record via analytics. 
 
Just because the camera CAN provide X resolution and quality, doesn't mean it's necessary or would provide a noticeable quality increase to justify the load on the NVR/server here for the sake of a few extra pixels

 

[RobNJ]

Ok at the risk of sounding totally clueless, what would be a recommeded stream rate for a cam? I have been looking at 1.3 and 3MP cams, but am i wasting my time with high MP if I really will never use the full potential? I can imagine that cams facing a more important entry location would be at a higher rate, while one that just covers a general backyard could run much lower. I guess more planning is required. This reminds me of when I was doing the power supply calculations for my M1.

Is there such a situation where you would constant stream at a lower rate, but then jump up to higher rate when an event occurs? Not sure if this is even possible.