Can someone explain automated lighting to me?

[apostolakisl]

If you want 100% success, go with a hardwired solution. If 99% is OK with you, then PLC/RF systems will do the trick. Lighting isn't critical in my mind, if a light fails to turn on or off on rare occasion, it doesn't really matter to me. In my Insteon system, the only failures I encounter are rarely with large complex scenes where one of the devices might not respond. I have my Elk relays run all the stuff that must work 100% of the time. They are hardwired in and include the irrigation system, overhead garage doors, whole house water valve, and a few other odds and ends.

At probably 5% or less of the cost of a Crestron system, I can live with that. UPB will be about 2 or 3 times Insteon, but still well less than Crestron. Z-wave is probably in the same boat. In a straight up installation without any regard for signal issues, UPB and zwave will beat Insteon. With a little effort, Insteon should work at the same level.

I don't really know much about ALC but the fixture prices seamed to be just a bit higher than UPB. But you do have to consider the labor and materials running all that cat5 wire. It could take you a couple days to do that yourself, and that still leaves you with installing and programming the switches later on. And if a mistake is made in the hardwiring of your house, it might not be so simple to correct it. The RF/PLC systems allow you complete flexibility to do whatever you want in the future regardless of what you prepared to do.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'm not sure UPB is as much more than insteon though - I would say less than double... then you have to figure in the costly ISY. Then again that depends on the brand - I went with Simply Automated because they were flexible and affordable, and were said to have the best feel - I've been happy with them and they offer great flexibility. I've completely reconfigured a bathroom and how the switches function vs. what they're wired to - it's pretty amazing (ie: the switch wired to the fan actually turns on the vanity lights and vice versa). Simply Automated is conveniently also the most affordable of the brands.

 

[pete_c]

While still in the infrastructure mode; its really nothing to add the additional cat5 wires if you want to go with that lighting solution in the future. You had mentioned that you will still be researching what you want to do anyways.

You kind of know what you want and have budgeted for relating to just lighting technology. If you are maintaining it as a DIY; think about how much it will cost in time and efforts after you install what you install when you install whatever technology it is that you install.

Personally what I have works fine for me. (and I am still playing).

As Lou mentioned earlier and I feel the same. Lighting isn't really a critical thing for me either anymore. It was fun to create little events that turn lights on with the PIR's or based on different variables.

Today I don't really care much; I have just the right amount (for me) of lighting automation that works for me. The lights go on and off based on sunset times and outside lighting still gets triggered based on simple events. If something I have today doesn't work 100% of the time then I adjust or change it such that it does. Its very easy for me to do. I guess I am compensating somewhat by using a DIY approach to the whole matter of lighting; but since this is my home and not a commercial office it doesn't matter.

Kind of funny on the inside lighting stuff. My wife really didn't like it when the family room lights would go on simply based on motion or the bathroom lights would go on based on motion; cuz she didn't want to turn on the lights sometimes; nothing more complicated than that.

 

[apostolakisl]

I'm not sure UPB is as much more than insteon though - I would say less than double... then you have to figure in the costly ISY. Then again that depends on the brand - I went with Simply Automated because they were flexible and affordable, and were said to have the best feel - I've been happy with them and they offer great flexibility. I've completely reconfigured a bathroom and how the switches function vs. what they're wired to - it's pretty amazing (ie: the switch wired to the fan actually turns on the vanity lights and vice versa). Simply Automated is conveniently also the most affordable of the brands.

True, does depend on what brand of UPB you are going with and which model of Insteon. If you go with all dual band 2477d's, UPB would be less than twice the price, maybe about 50 or 60% more. Also, you have to realize that I have never paid full price for anything Insteon, I always buy at Christmas when they have the 20% sale. But you could actually get Insteon way down in price if you went with Icon switches and got 20% off. You would be at about $30/switch. The reduced functionality of Icon switches is negligible in most situations. Personally I have about 2/3's of my system 2476d's (pre-dual band) and about 1/3 icon's with a total of 4 dual bands (just bought this Christmas). I have 83 devices and an ISY. This cost me less than $4,000 total based on sale prices and the fact that I bought many of them when the prices were lower. But, I did have to replace about 40 of the older switches becuase of the paddle issue. It didn't cost me any money, but sure was a PITA.

ISY costs about $300. But I am pretty sure you would need to get some controller for UPB as well, either software or hardware. I can't imagine manually setting 50 or 100 switches would be doable on UPB any more than Insteon. Plus you would want to have programmability based on things besides direct links to UPB motion sensors or UPB button presses. Time of day events, date events, and any event that doesn't take origin from a UPB device would need something else. To some extent you could use your security system to initate events provided it was an Elk or HAI. But that doesn't help you out with maintaining the infrastructure. But ISY is so much more than just an Insteon controller. But that is a whole different topic.

 

[tmbrown97]

It's definitely not apples to apples. With UPB, setup via Upstart is actually very simple and powerful - there's no other device out there that takes its place for your overall setup and management of your switches. Once they're programmed to your satisfaction, they work completely independently, without the need for any controller - at least for your everyday scenes and button presses. It's actually a great product to work with and is the centerpiece of UPB - and it's free. When using other controllers, they can either poll the switches themselves to get their configuration, or they can load a simplified export out of Upstart - which is still very simple. The switches actually know their names and the names of the room they're in; the only thing they don't know is the name of the links/scenes - just the numbers, and how to respond to them.

The place where some form of automation controller comes in is for time or event based scheduling. For years the only automation I had tied in was turning on the outside lights at sunrise/sunset, and turning on lights as you enter the house if the alarm is armed. That I did through the Elk (plus I used eKeypad to control the lights). The RUC is available if you have no other automation platforms in the house - and it can be had for about $200 - which includes a PIM - so it could be your only controller in a simplified setup (plus there's an android and iPhone app for it!). There's other ways too - you could use an input/output module tied to a security system, or even a photocell - the SA one has a lot of features built in that are pretty impressive. That said, I think we're all using either hardware or software to centrally manage things so that becomes a moot point. With an Elk or Omni or CQC/HomeSeer/Elve, all you need is a $60 PIM and you're set. You can usually get one with a starter package and save some money up front too. I've bought several of the SA UPB Starter Kits now in different variations to save money and get multiple parts I might need at once.

 

[tmbrown97]

And Pete - I know it's nothing to run additional wires while the sheetrock is down... I haven't worked with any of these hardwired systems personally, just followed threads about them. But, something comes to mind... how do you get to the wires when you need them?

So, in a situation where you're wiring Cat5 to each switch location - because of code it can't enter the gang box - because that's mixing high/low voltage. If you were to fully wire the house, I understand the ALC and similar switches have insulated leads that are allowed to share the box - and they'd exit the box and join with the Cat5 in the wall cavity. I've also heard some people bring the cat5 out the drywall on top of the box to avoid code issues. But in a situation where this is a "Maybe" feature, I can't picture how you'd get access to those wires down the road once they're covered up with drywall? You can't leave them in the box, and you don't want them hanging out the top unless you know you're going to hook them up as soon as the inspector leaves... so how do you get to them later?

This is just a curiosity - thinking about people who do this... maybe tie some non-conducting poly-line inside the box to the Cat5 so you can pull it in someday if you need to? I dunno... just curious if anyone has figured this one out.

 

[EmagSamurai]

... how do you get to the wires when you need them?......

I've been wondering about this myself. Particularly where spray foam is being used, because, as mentioned before, once the foam is on the wire, it's not going anywhere. So the only option is really to pull the wire into the box before the house is foamed. If your inspector doesn't like it, then I would guess you're out of luck.

 

[pete_c]

Work2Play,

I have never run wires to an electrical box either.

"Where there's a will, there's a way"

I guess I would initially start by asking/finding a contractor that installs these wired systems what is done in the prewire when foam insulation is utilized; expecially how its done to meet standard residential electrical code and building inspector inspections during construction.

Knowing where the switches are you can prewire to adjacent to the electrical box switch and still get to the LV cable afterwards without the cable being inside of the box. (just a logical approach that I would do maybe). With foam it would be difficult but not impossible.

In Florida insulation foam was utilized for the windows, sliding glass doors and doors. I had to dig sometimes to pull the LV wires out for the alarm system. I forgot how many wires I played with. I had issues with one sliding glass door (out of 6?) and one regular door frame (out of 4?).

That said the endeavor of the DIY LV cable to the switch boxes makes it much less a DIY endeavor than just the deep boxes and neutrals for the "other" choices for lighting switches.

 

[edge]

If he does decide to go with Cat5, running conduit to each switch box is an option if spray foam is used. I forget which member used this in their install.

In my case, the space left by the drywall cut out was large enough to fish the Cat5, terminate, and neatly tuck back into the wall. The home had mid-size plates, only had to trim drywall for a few.

Code says you can mix lv as long as it is insulated, termination above the box was easier in my case.

I've still got 3 rooms not finished, the Cat5 is in the wall above the box with a small zip tie on the end. Insulation hangers are good retrieval tools-and cheap too!

 

[apostolakisl]

It's definitely not apples to apples. With UPB, setup via Upstart is actually very simple and powerful - there's no other device out there that takes its place for your overall setup and management of your switches. Once they're programmed to your satisfaction, they work completely independently, without the need for any controller - at least for your everyday scenes and button presses. It's actually a great product to work with and is the centerpiece of UPB - and it's free. When using other controllers, they can either poll the switches themselves to get their configuration, or they can load a simplified export out of Upstart - which is still very simple. The switches actually know their names and the names of the room they're in; the only thing they don't know is the name of the links/scenes - just the numbers, and how to respond to them.

The place where some form of automation controller comes in is for time or event based scheduling. For years the only automation I had tied in was turning on the outside lights at sunrise/sunset, and turning on lights as you enter the house if the alarm is armed. That I did through the Elk (plus I used eKeypad to control the lights). The RUC is available if you have no other automation platforms in the house - and it can be had for about $200 - which includes a PIM - so it could be your only controller in a simplified setup (plus there's an android and iPhone app for it!). There's other ways too - you could use an input/output module tied to a security system, or even a photocell - the SA one has a lot of features built in that are pretty impressive. That said, I think we're all using either hardware or software to centrally manage things so that becomes a moot point. With an Elk or Omni or CQC/HomeSeer/Elve, all you need is a $60 PIM and you're set. You can usually get one with a starter package and save some money up front too. I've bought several of the SA UPB Starter Kits now in different variations to save money and get multiple parts I might need at once.

Like UPB, Insteon also functions without anything extra at all once it is all setup. The ISY unit makes setting your scenes up as a simple drag and drop process. But once you ahve done that, you can shut it off if you want. But ISY does tons and tons more, for a lot of people making something like homeseer unnecessary.

As far as running cat5 to boxes. I don't know where you would get "insulated" cat5 that code would allow in the box. I am sure it is out there, but then you would I guess run the insulated stuff the entire distance? At probably a much higher price than standard cat5 and probably much thicker? I have many double gangs that share lv with hv, but they have the partition wall in place as required.

You certainly could run regular cat5 right up to the boxes and make a few coils and tape it to the side. A needle noise plier between the box and the drywall would easily be able to grab and get it out after the fact. Just always do it in the same spot so you know where to fish around.

You could certainly loop up

 

[EmagSamurai]

I think running a drop to the top of the box would probably work here as well as long as I left enough slack hanging out that I could push it back behind the drywall after they foamed the walls. I could just dig out a little space just above the box for the extra. It would probably make fishing the wire back out even easier since I would know exactly where the cable is anyway.

Decisions decisions!

 

[apostolakisl]

I think running a drop to the top of the box would probably work here as well as long as I left enough slack hanging out that I could push it back behind the drywall after they foamed the walls. I could just dig out a little space just above the box for the extra. It would probably make fishing the wire back out even easier since I would know exactly where the cable is anyway.

Decisions decisions!

As long as you are using open cell foam it is no big deal. If you really wanted to make it easy, coil the wire up, tape it to the box with masking tape (stuff that tears easy), and cover the loops of wire with a piece of paper (tape it on with something tougher like duct tape) to keep the spray foam off the wires. A little "pocket" of sorts.

Closed cell foam usually is not sprayed to the full thickness of the wall. So you would have some space. But, closed cell hardens into a rock. It is like foamed up epoxy. Open cell is more like popcorn foam, you can easily poke your finger in it or tear it out. You can even fish wires through it with a small rod.

I don't know what code is on this, but it kind of surprises me that cat5 is allowed in a hv box, even with inusulation. The stripped end of the wire would also be in the box, right? Is there some rule about having to have a "box inside a box" containing the spliced wires?.

 

[EmagSamurai]

So it looks like my options for wired automated lighting that use standard wiring practices are UPB, ALC, and possibly the Lutron Maestro line (I'm still trying to decipher exactly what's required for these products). It looks like ALC would require a Cat5 to each switch, the lutron option would require a #22, and UPB nothing. Would I be safe pulling a 22/2 or 22/4 to each switch location? Could that be used for either the Lutron or the ALC option?

Again, I'm having a bit of a difficult time deciphering exactly what's wired and what is not in the Lutron system as well as what the costs of the equipment are. Also, the ALC pieces seem to be nice on principle, but they are pretty pricey on the website. I'm also a little concerned about the changes to the company has undergone in the last few years. I haven't called them yet, but it's on my list of to-do's.

Are there other options that I've missed? I didn't see the Lutron system discussed much on the boards, did I miss it somewhere? Thanks again!

 

[oberkc]

So it looks like my options for wired automated lighting that use standard wiring practices are UPB, ALC, and possibly the Lutron Maestro line

Are there other options that I've missed?

Unless you have excluded these by choice, you missed insteon and X-10.

 

[EmagSamurai]

I thought X10 and Insteon are wireless solutions? I'd like to prewire for any wired solutions I might consider that don't require home runs of the HV wiring.