Complete Bath Remodel

[jedinite7]

All, Thanks in advance for reading this long post. I have done a lot of lurking but this is obviously my first post.

Background:
I am doing a complete remodel of a bathroom and wanted to run some of my plans by everyone to see if I am missing something and just get your thoughts in general . The remodel will likely happen in about 6 months and will be the first stage of a complete house remodel. I am on a seriously limited budget, and I have no hardware/software besides a few computers. I will eventually retrofit my entire house with all of the HA goodies that the pros here seem to have in place. I am an EE by trade and have no worries using/creating any type of hardware. I have done some programming in C and perl. Not too familiar with servers/virtualization. Networking scares/frustrates me. I say all that as an introduction and to give a basis of where I am coming from. The house is one story with an attic and a crawl space, so the rest of the retrofit should be possible as far as wiring goes. I am completley gutting the bathroom including drywall, ceiling, and subfloor (leaked at one point and is basically ruined).

Basic Architeture:
Since I am on a weak budget I plan to initially use a PC based solution as the controller. For software I am going to try all of the free solutions for now (Misterhouse, other Linux options, Premise, etc.) and switch to Homeseer/CQC if I eventually find those to be lacking. I guess the most important thing to get right during this remodel is the wiring and make sure whatever I do is compatible with my final vision. That way I can upgrade the individual components as I go. Here were my initial thoughts:

The temporary wiring closet will be an office closet on the other side of the bathroom wall. The permanent wiring closet (not ready yet and part of a later remodel) will be ~100ft away which I will take into account by having huge loops of wiring to run at a later date or using some sort of distributed computing.


System Functionality:
1 - Automatically turn on the fan when someone showers (high humidity)
2 - Turn on radiant floor heat (electric) on a timer and remotely depending on ambient temperature
3 - Monitor for any water leaks
4 - Standard lighting control with dimming and mood (scenes)
5 - Music and announcements
6 - Turn lights on and off based on motion/occupancy
7 - Monitor room temperature
8 - Local control of the system using an in wall touchpanel (does this make any sense at all in the bathroom? I just want one so bad and since this is the first room to remodel... I could put it in the main hall which probably makes more sense)
9 - Crazy idea: automate the bath/shower water temperature, on/off, fill/drain, monitor water usage/flow.


Components:
1 - Humidity (Honeywell) /Temperature (Maxim) sensors interfaced using a 1-wire network
2 - Temperature sensors and controllable tstat for radiant floor interfaced using a relay board run from parallel port/usb/ethernet/etc.
3 - Water sensors (don't know which kind yet, but was thinking GRI/leaf wetness sensor with a custom interface to PC maybe using 1-wire)
4 - Probably will wait for interoperable Zigbee solution (if that takes way too long which it probably will I'll take another look at UPB, Zwave, RadioRA2)
5 - Speaker driven by cheap receiver driven by PC sound card. Eventually will get a WHA system when I do another room. Should I use two speakers, a dual coil, or just one speaker in the bathroom (~80sqft L-shaped.)
6 - Probably a dual tech sensor (we have a 60lb dog). I am not sure how to interface it to the PC. I plan to eventually hook it to an ELK, HAI so I might just have to live without this feature until I get one of those. Plus if I wait on lighting control I can only monitor status not control the lights.
7 - See 1
8 - ELO driven by control PC
9 - Needs some help here on electronic valves. Maybe someone has done something like this and has a writeup that can get me thinking on how to implement this. I did see a similar post or two but need a little more.

Hopefully I am not way off base here and thanks again.

Colby

 

[Neurorad]

I just did a MBa remodel, started me on my HA journey. :blush:

Since you have attic above and crawl below, adding anything in the future should be pretty straightforward.

In-ceiling speakers? Easy to retrofit. Keypad control, in the wall? Easy to run a new cable.

Wait - it's really easy for me, with attic above, but I haven't run into any firestops in the wall yet.

Do you have any locations in the MBa where you could run some conduit, for future cable runs crawlspace to attic? Inside a non-load-bearing wall?

I ran into trouble with my electric radiant floor heat control. Right now, it's 2 zones, with 2 'special' thermostats. I don't know if I'll be able to use those thermostats in the future, or if I'll have to replace them. They're expensive, but I think they have relays on the back - not described in the product literature, but described in the same thermostat from the original manufacturer (IIRC, they're rebranded from Aube to NuHeat, can't recall the details). You should call the manufacturer of your electric radiant floor heating system and discuss control of their thermostat, if you don't want to have to replace it in the future. Since I have no control system yet (leaning toward CQC), it hasn't been an issue. It's easy for me to run new cables to the thermostat locations - 1 currently has a cat5e cable running to it, unused.

Get a shower niche - definately my favorite part of the MBa.

Electronic controls of water temp for a shower valve I think are very expensive. Research prices.

Water detectors are best supplied by a 4 conductor cable, though 2 cable versions are best. Look to GRI 2600 and 2800 series water sensors. Don't know about 1-wire water leak detection. Behind the toilet, under sinks would be good. Maybe 1 under the tub? Don't know how commonly bathtubs leak - prob pretty uncommon. The GRI sensors are usually used with an alarm system, e.g. Elk M1 or M1EZ8, or HAI OPII or Lumina. Have you considered a security system? The Elk and HAI controllers allow for some decent HA options.

 

[signal15]

Don't forget to wire a touch panel near the toilet so you can have reading material, internet access, the ability to play around with the system, or watch surveillance cams while you are dropping the kids off at the pool.

Remember, all of the world's most complex problems are solved at 3am over beers, or while sitting on the toilet.

 

[cornutt]

System Functionality:
1 - Automatically turn on the fan when someone showers (high humidity)\

Very doable. A number of Cocooners here have done that.

2 - Turn on radiant floor heat (electric) on a timer and remotely depending on ambient temperature

Systems that I'm aware of should be easy to control. That's what I'm going to do when my existing (non-communicating) floor controller dies. It's line voltage, so an ordinary appliance module should be able to control it. With some systems, you have to do something to prevent the heat from overheating the floor, but mine isn't capable of getting that hot.

3 - Monitor for any water leaks

Easily done. In a bath, you mainly want to monitor for bathtub overflows. Maybe also shower and toilet if you have kids. Plumbing leaks probably aren't worth worrying about in your installation, unless you have uninsulated plumbing in an exterior wall.

4 - Standard lighting control with dimming and mood (scenes)
5 - Music and announcements

Yep, standard stuff.

6 - Turn lights on and off based on motion/occupancy

Might not be a good idea in a bathroom. You may be, erm, stationary for a while. I used to work in a place that had motions controlling the lights in the bathrooms, and they were notorious for turning the lights off at inconvenient times. Also, it's hard to position a motion detector to reliably "see" someone in a shower.

7 - Monitor room temperature

Yes, you might want to do this to control the floor heat and/or an overhead heater. Also figure on putting in an outdoor temperature sensor so it knows not to do it in warm weather.

8 - Local control of the system using an in wall touchpanel (does this make any sense at all in the bathroom? I just want one so bad and since this is the first room to remodel... I could put it in the main hall which probably makes more sense)

Can't hurt to go ahead and drop a run of Cat5 for it. Then you can decide at any future time if you actually want it or not. The general rule of wiring for home automation: when in doubt, run a Cat5.

9 - Crazy idea: automate the bath/shower water temperature, on/off, fill/drain, monitor water usage/flow.

Cool from a tech standpoint. But very difficult to get right, and IHMO, not really worth the trouble as far as practical functionality.

 

[Steve]

System Functionality:

9 - Crazy idea: automate the bath/shower water temperature, on/off, fill/drain, monitor water usage/flow.

Cool from a tech standpoint. But very difficult to get right, and IHMO, not really worth the trouble as far as practical functionality.

I just did a MBa remodel too and went a bit overboard. If you want a hi tech cool shower you need to use this. It's not automated but it is very cool and functional. I absolutely love it. Also, do you shave in the shower? If so, you absolutely need this, it works great.

I have a UPB keypad. When I take a shower only (no shave) I hit 'A' and it turn on the shower light and fan for 40 min. When I hit Off it just shuts the light off. If I am going to shave I hit 'B' and it turn on the light, mirror and fan (for 40 min). When I hit off it shuts the light and mirror off. Speaking of fans, you will want to look at these, its also awesome - powerful and super quiet.

I can get you pics or more details on any of it if you are interested. But warning, its not for the faint of budget

 

[signal15]

Inline centrifugal fans are the way to go. Mount them up in the attic away from the bathroom, and you don't have super loud fan noise bothering you. Plus, they move WAY more air than those ceiling mount axial fans.

 

[jedinite7]

Thanks to everyone who has taken time to reply. As I hoped several good suggestions have been made and things I need to research a bit more.

Neurorad - Thanks for the conduit idea I hadn't thought of that. The bath has interior non-load bearing walls that will make it easy to get from attic to crawl in that part of the house.
why did you need to use 2 zones for the radiant heat (where you the one with the separate toilet room?). And I will be sure to check on the thermostats that come with the system and which system did you get? Do you have a pic of that niche, I will probably add one. I definitely want to use a security system, ELK/HAI, in the future and run the usual HA goodies off of it. For now, because of budget, I am going to use things I acquired from work to run I/O and relays from the PC. It is more work and probably not as reliable but will have to do until I can invest in the hardware controller.

signal15 - I think you are right. In front of the toilet makes the most sense for a touch screen. I think I read a post that you do have one currently setup, does it still get a lot of practical use or is it mainly for show? Do you have a link for more details on the inline centrifugal, mainly for install and design considerations.

cornutt - All the walls are interior so I will stick with your water sensor location suggestions. Good point on the motion sensor. What are people doing for automatically turning the lights on in the bathroom, or do we actually have to throw the switch ?

Steve - Thanks for all the links and ideas but you are making my wallet cringe. That mirror looks awesome as I do shave in the shower most of the time. Regarding the Kohler unit, that is exactly what I want. Or rather that is what I sold my wife on doing all this HA for. Of course I did not realize how hard it would be to DIY and how much money these units are. Looks like I am back to the drawing board on that one.

 

[ano]

cornutt - All the walls are interior so I will stick with your water sensor location suggestions. Good point on the motion sensor. What are people doing for automatically turning the lights on in the bathroom, or do we actually have to throw the switch ?

I think the art of Home Automation is realizing when Simple is Better. For example I automate the bathroom fan with a simple Leviton timer switch. Press the 1,3,5,10,15, 20 switch, and the fan stays on that long. No PC needed.

For lighting control, especially in a bathroom, a switch is the best choice. I use UPB switches which allow for some simple "automation" just using them. For example, when I switch off the bathroom light, it also switches off the closet lights and toilet room lights, but each of these rooms has a separate switch so I can turn on each separately. Again simple, and it works great. Motion controlled lights in a bathroom is just going to lead to disappointment. That's not to say I don't control my lights with home automation, but don't do it unless automation can get it right at least 95% of the time.

 

[drvnbysound]

As far as controlled lighting in the bathroom is concerned... assuming you did have a occupancy sensor and a hardware controller (HAI/ELK), couldnt you simply write a rule along the lines of:

If (occupancy=true), then (lights = stay on for 10 minutes)... assuming this would loop when it saw reoccuring movement and restart the 10min timer.
I am assuming that if you are in the BA and you dont move in that area for 10 minutes, you probably dont need that light on any longer.


I suppose if this didnt work well (potentially turned off while you are taking the BROWNS to the Super Bowl!), one could potentially use the occupancy sensor in a different way such as helping to reduce costs of lights being left on:

If (light = on > 30 minutes) and (occupancy = false), then (lights = off)

 

[signal15]

signal15 - I think you are right. In front of the toilet makes the most sense for a touch screen. I think I read a post that you do have one currently setup, does it still get a lot of practical use or is it mainly for show? Do you have a link for more details on the inline centrifugal, mainly for install and design considerations.

I wired for them, but I haven't found anything I like so far. There is a netbook in the bathroom that sits in the magazine rack that people can use for reading material while making a deposit at the porcelain bank. Steve posted a link above to the centrifugal fans. You don't need to buy one specifically made for bathroom use, in fact, you might be able to get a better price and more airflow with one from a hydroponics shop. I had two in my old house, one as a booster fan for the ducts in an addition, and one for the upstairs bathroom fan. The first time I turned on the one used for HVAC, about 4 or 5 kids toys came flying out of one of the vents.

 

[Neurorad]

Don't have pics of my shower niche, but these are some I've found:

Our niche shelves are the same granite as the tub surround and vanity tops. Our niche has 3 spaces - short area at the bottom for soap, 2 upper are each the same height. We handed the tile guy the tallest shampoo bottle we had, and he made it, though pre-made forms are available (for tiling over). Discuss the niche with the tile guy before he shows up - he may want some kind of form to use. Our tile guy didn't.

I've tried to wire the master bath for the future whole-house controller (HAI vs. Elk +/- CQC), but it was hard to figure out what was really needed. I've since figured out that it's very easy to retrofit cables in my MBa, and I'm not too worried. I ran a cable Sunday for the water sensor which will be located behind the toilet.

We used a NuHeat brand electric radiant floor heating system. Big mat for the main area, small coils for the toilet room. When finished, the toilet room floor was a different temp than the rest of the floor (long run to the thermostat, but I think they didn't space the coils appropriately - length was within the 23 foot distance specified by NuHeat), so we had the builder/tiler install the second thermostat with a separate temp probe.

We had a tough time deciding what to do about access to the jacuzzi tub motor - not supposed to drywall it in per code. Before the renovation, there was an ugly panel covering the hole. Since it was next to the toilet, we opted to use the hole to install a recessed painted wood magazine rack, screwed to the adjacent studs, fitted into the space between 2 studs. Rack is painted black, the same color as the painted surface mount medicine cabinet above the toilet (holds TP, other essentials), and the painted wood his/her vanities.

We'll prob end up with 2 ceiling fans - only 1 now in the toilet room. I'm concerned about the humidity, and the in-line fan in the attic above will be ideal.

 

[signal15]

Make sure that if you do a niche, you do not grout the bottom corners of it. They will eventually crack if you use grout, and water can run down into the wall. Get "sanded acrylic caulk" instead. You should be able to get it in the same color as your grout, and it will look identical. It's slightly flexible and will not crack. It should also be used around the edges of the floor where they meet the wall. Every tile shower I've seen that is grouted where the wall meets the floor cracks after 2 years or so, sometimes sooner. Tile tub surrounds should also use sanded caulk where they meet the tub.

You should also consider tiling the ceiling in the shower if you are worried about humidity/mold/mildew. I've had mold/mildew problems above showers with knockdown or popcorn above them. In my last house, I ended up tiling the ceiling above both of the showers during the remodel. It looked awesome, and I didn't have to worry about crap growing on it.

Home despot carries the sanded caulk, and tile shops also have it. For some reason, tile shops around here do not carry it in the charcoal color, but Home despot did.

 

[Monk]

Inline centrifugal fans are the way to go. Mount them up in the attic away from the bathroom, and you don't have super loud fan noise bothering you. Plus, they move WAY more air than those ceiling mount axial fans.

I bought a Fantech PBV6 for this purpose - can't wait to hook it up...

 

[Steve]

Regarding the Kohler unit, that is exactly what I want. Or rather that is what I sold my wife on doing all this HA for. Of course I did not realize how hard it would be to DIY and how much money these units are. Looks like I am back to the drawing board on that one.

If you are just doing a simple shower with one or maybe even two heads it probably doesn't pay. But if you are doing a 'performance' shower' with 3 or more outlets, consider the Kohler very strongly. Here are some points to consider:

1. You basically get one shot at this so do everything you may want even if you have to stretch a bit. You will be disappointed otherwise. I lived with no master bath for almost 5 years because it was torn apart and I refused to just put it back
really basic and we saved up to do it right.

2. Assuming you will be doing > 2 heads and need to justify the DTV, remember in addition to your main valve, you will need a 'volume control' for each outlet. So, 1, You will end up with 'warts' all over your walls - you will need another handle for each head. By the time you add up the cost of a good main valve and all the volume controls, you are getting closer to the price of the DTV.

3. The DTV is just so nice. Each person just presses a single button and the shower sets up to their individual settings - which head, what temp. You never have to readjust controls or anything. And its all done from 1 small cool control panel so your nice new tile stays clean looking without handles all over the place, besides each handle is more plumbing (adds to the price) plus another opening in the tile for water to get into.

Make sure that if you do a niche, you do not grout the bottom corners of it. They will eventually crack if you use grout, and water can run down into the wall. Get "sanded acrylic caulk" instead. You should be able to get it in the same color as your grout, and it will look identical. It's slightly flexible and will not crack. It should also be used around the edges of the floor where they meet the wall. Every tile shower I've seen that is grouted where the wall meets the floor cracks after 2 years or so, sometimes sooner. Tile tub surrounds should also use sanded caulk where they meet the tub.

I was completely anal about making sure wall would stay dry and not creating mold conditions. I agree about the niche, but it not that necessary on the floor if the shower is built right. ALL grout, even if sealed is porous and water WILL penetrate it. If it's a 'custom' build and not a drop in pan, you will have a liner under the floor and that liner should extend up the walls AT LEAST past the height of the curb, usually a min of 6 inches. So, even if the grout there cracks, it will wind up on the liner which is the same place as the rest of the water from the floor will go. Now, MAKE SURE there is a pre-slope on the subfloor before you put the liner - this is what will allow that water that gets under the tile and on the liner to drain (and you need a special drain). Of course you could just use a Kerdi system and you will be totally safe even on walls. I would not diy the shower build unless you are very comfortable and have done your research - just throwing in a floor and walls without knowing what you are doing is an invitation to disaster. Even if hiring a pro - check credentials, references, etc and ask lots of questions. You make scare a few ID 10 Ts away, but that's what you want.

Inline centrifugal fans are the way to go. Mount them up in the attic away from the bathroom, and you don't have super loud fan noise bothering you. Plus, they move WAY more air than those ceiling mount axial fans.

I bought a Fantech PBV6 for this purpose - can't wait to hook it up...

The PBV6 is the grille and fine for new construction, otherwise like in my case where I ripped out a pre-existing fan I used the Panasonic FV-NLF06G grill with an FR150 fan. Now, for the fan you do want the FR series which is all plastic and even outdoor rated. Remember you are pulling humidity (water) thru the ducts and fan. This is per Fantech's advice - don't use a metal fan.

And - if like Neurorad you need multiple inlets/grilles, thats easy. You can use a Y connector and hook multiple grilles to a single fan. They even have 4 way 'gang' boxes if you have larger needs. Use the sizing charts to determine what size you need then I recommend you go up to the next size if you are half or more in the range for a specific size. The size app will ask if you are using multiple inlets.

 

[Rupp]

I use these to monitor humidity in all my showers. I have HomeSeer automatically turn off the bathroom vent fans based on the actual level. The fan is connected to a Z-Wave relay switch. It generally takes about 30 minutes to clear the humidity. It sometimes comes back on for a few minutes later. You never have to worry about mold with this setup.