Elk water shutoff valve (WSV) wiring question

[Ira]

Bench testing my WSV so that I can fully understand how it operates in preparation to install it. For now, I have it hooked up to the M1G like it is shown in the documentation, i.e., output 3 and VAUX.

When the M1G starts up, it sets all outputs to closed. That means the WSV will be closed (or remain closed) at system startup. How do people using WSV's controlled by an M1G handle this? Do you have a startup rule that opens the WSV a minute or two later? Before restarting the M1G, do you make sure nobody/nothing is using any water? Seems to me that a little convenience is being sacrificed for a little more protection.

Alternatively, does anyone have it wired opposite of what the documentation says, i.e., white wire to N/C and red wire to N/O? That way, the WSV would open (or remain open if it already was) at system startup. The downside I see to this approach is that if the WSV was closed prior to the system startup due to a water leak, when the system restarted, it would open and potentially cause more water damage, until the leak was detected again and the WSV was told to close. So no inconvenience, but potentially less protection and more damage.

In my case, the WSV will ultimately be controlled by a remote M1XOVR expander and powered by a separate PS, so the system startup can take a minute or two. And I understand that the M1G is seldom restarted, but just curious if anyone has strayed from the recommended path.

Thanks,
Ira

 

[Gearhead]

You might try a P212S instead of a separate power supply and M1XOVR.

 

[gatchel]

I have a well for my water supply. I wired my WSV reversing the red and white wires. I want water to flow all of the time and didn't want to rely on a rule to maintain this. I decided that if the Elk fails the water sensors that I have installed probably aren't going to work anyway so no benefit there. If the power fails and the battery backup fails that means there is probably also no power to the well pump and only a limited amount of water is going to spill.

I have F1 setup on a keypad toggle the output and the button flashes the status of the relay for now. I haven't wired in the green wire to a relay to get the actual valve position using a zone just yet.

Others may disagree with this as the elk diagram shows the " fail safe " wiring method which is probably is better, I just couldn't come up with a good reason to wire it this way other than the failure of the elk relay. 99.9999999% of the time I want the water to be flowing.


I also test the WSV often along with the rest of the system. Testing is good.

If this isn't the best method maybe some others can enlighten the both of us.

 

[Ira]

I'm on a well system, too. Another ongoing/unfinished project I have is adding a rapid cycle sensor to the well pump circuit, along with relays to monitor/disconnect power to the well pump. So if the M1G detects a leak, it will close the WSV and shut off power to the well. It's a layer of redundancy, plus it takes care of the scenario where the leak is before the WSV.

 

[gatchel]

I have a contactor sitting on my "I'll get to it" shelf for the same reason. I was fortunate enough to remember to pull some extra cabling to the same location. I just have to get off my butt and finish the job.

 

[Ira]

I wonder if using two M1G outputs/relays instead of just one to control the WSV would cover things better. The "open" (white) lead connected to the N/O terminal of one relay. The "close" (red) lead connected to the N/O terminal of the other relay. 12Vdc+ connected to both relays' commons. Since nothing is connected to the N/C terminals of either relay, M1G system startup won't affect anything when it closed both relays, i.e., it should stay in whatever state it was before the startup. When you want to close the valve, "pulse" the red wire relay for about five seconds. When you want to open the valve, "pulse" the white wire relay for about five seconds. If you really want to be safe, before pulsing either relay, check the status of a phantom output that gets turned on for ten seconds by any rule that is about to pulse one of the two WSV relays. If it is on, that means another rule is pulsing one of the WSV relays, so try again after ten seconds.

I think you could do something similar to the above with the WSV documentation wiring scheme, if you add a couple of two-coil latching relays in series with the WSV, one on each lead (red and white). Haven't thought it completely thru, so maybe not.

 

[Ira]

After giving the idea of using two M1G outputs/relays to control the WSV...I think one big downside would be that you would lose the ability to detect the current state of the valve. It looks like the green status wire gets its voltage from the red wire, since there is no independent voltage source for the green wire. Since with my scheme, the red wire would be pulsed instead of always on if the valve is closed, if the green status wire is a continuation of the red wire, the green wire would also be pulsed. After a red wire pulse, the green wire would again show open (no voltage). If this is true, I guess maybe you could use an M1G counter or custom setting to try to track the state by updating it after a state change, but there is the risk of it getting out of sync. Do counters or custom settings get initialized at startup? If so, that wouldn't work either.

 

[Del91574]

Relays fail, quite often from my experience, and IMHO, I think fail-safe would be far more prudent for someone that has a municipal water supply or a setup that can't detect short cycles on a well based system.

To each their own, in this case.

 

[Desert_AIP]

The Watercop valve has status outputs for valve opened and closed.
So I use two relays, one open / one closed, to positively control the valve rather than relying on a fail state.
And I can positively determine the status of the valve. I have it hooked up to two zones.
If the Open status is on the valve is on if the Closed status is on the valve is closed. If neither is on the valve is stuck in some transition state. With a flag timer, I can re-check the status and resend the open or closed command to the relay until the valve is in the proper position.
It's a 110VAC valve but I have it plugged into a small UPS.

 

[apostolakisl]

Bench testing my WSV so that I can fully understand how it operates in preparation to install it. For now, I have it hooked up to the M1G like it is shown in the documentation, i.e., output 3 and VAUX.

When the M1G starts up, it sets all outputs to closed. That means the WSV will be closed (or remain closed) at system startup. How do people using WSV's controlled by an M1G handle this? Do you have a startup rule that opens the WSV a minute or two later? Before restarting the M1G, do you make sure nobody/nothing is using any water? Seems to me that a little convenience is being sacrificed for a little more protection.

Alternatively, does anyone have it wired opposite of what the documentation says, i.e., white wire to N/C and red wire to N/O? That way, the WSV would open (or remain open if it already was) at system startup. The downside I see to this approach is that if the WSV was closed prior to the system startup due to a water leak, when the system restarted, it would open and potentially cause more water damage, until the leak was detected again and the WSV was told to close. So no inconvenience, but potentially less protection and more damage.

In my case, the WSV will ultimately be controlled by a remote M1XOVR expander and powered by a separate PS, so the system startup can take a minute or two. And I understand that the M1G is seldom restarted, but just curious if anyone has strayed from the recommended path.

Thanks,
Ira

I have mine wired exactly as stated in the owners manual. If you power cycle the Elk, it returns to the last state before it was power cyclced. This, of course, is a very very rare event. Frankly, I do not know if this is because Elk remembers the last known state or if it is because it runs the rule that states that when the system is disarmed. . .turn the water on.

I have my Elk and Elk WSV now for 2 years. It has functioned flawlessly. It shuts down one hour after the system is armed away and turns back on when disarmed. I also have it set to shut off if any of the 15 water sensors in my house detect water. I did have to make some adjustments to this as the cleaning people were getting them wet. No probs in about a year with that now.

By having it shut down every arm/disarm cycle, it is easy for me to know that it is working properly, plus it protects the house from ruptures away from the leak detectors. The valve is in the garage and I can hear it when I pull in turning back on.

I have the Elk WSV powered off of the ATX power supply that I installed to power all of my 12 and 5v stuff. The ATX has a UPS as well keeping it working in a power failure.

 

[pmb1010]

If power were completely not available (no 12v for what ever reason...) would it be possible to manually turn that big knob on top with a wrench, to open or close the valve in dire emergency?

 

[ecborgoyn]

Whether or not you can turn the 'big knob', I would HIGHLY recommend that the WSV electrically operated valve NOT be your only mechanism to shutoff the water supply. The WSV should always be installed in 'series' with your (hopefully) existing ball valve.... My guess is the 'big knob' is an indicator and not a control.

 

[gatchel]

Whether or not you can turn the 'big knob', I would HIGHLY recommend that the WSV electrically operated valve NOT be your only mechanism to shutoff the water supply. The WSV should always be installed in 'series' with your (hopefully) existing ball valve.... My guess is the 'big knob' is an indicator and not a control.

I agree. You need an emergency bypass that you would leave closed unless the WSV failed.

The big knob is definitely an indicator. I couldn't turn it. I did not try a wrench and I wouldn't recommend it.

The only downside of the WSV is that it can't be manually operated.

 

[ecborgoyn]

Down the road if/when I add a power actuated shutoff valve and my own water meter, I'll add the valving configuration as shown in the attachment. It lets me isolate/bypass the power actuated valve AND isolate/bypass the additional water meter. I'd use the meter to provide real-time usage information to the HA system. Although my incoming water service is a 3/4" line, my plan is to use 1" full-port ball valves and fittings for this addition as to help mitigate the additional pressure drop of a second meter (and the valves). I realize that a 1" meter won't have the low-flow accuracy of the 3/4" meter.....

Of course this will be installed AFTER my current meter and ball valves.

 

[apostolakisl]

PUt me down as a third on that. The motor is highly geared to provide incredible open/close force which means it is highly geared against manually turning it. I am pretty sure it is just a disk with an arrow on it because they don't want you to use it as a handle.

I think it would be a bit overkill to put a bypass valve in there for manually override from a stuck off perspective. But it would not be overkill to have a second valve in there to manually shut the water off from a stuck on perspective. Most people would have a valve at the street, which is what I use. Of course, you should periodically use the street valve as they can seize up in the on position if not actuated for a long period of time.