Getting ready to go automated... But How!?
- Thread starter nfmmalice
- Start date
Steve
Senior Member
That's actually the easiest decision to make. I would NEVER use a pc and software as a primary security platform. Can it be done, sure, but its kind of like using a pair of pliers to drive a nail. I would rather see you get a $150 basic alarm panel than trust your families safety to a pc based system. For automation, no problem, just not the right tool for real security.
I am currently trying to decided between ELK and HAI and was leaning towards ELK because of it not being DIY friendly. Is HAI more approachable in regards to contacting them? I looked at their website and they have support forums that seem to be available only to dealers/installers. The other plus that HAI has is that their panels look more updated than the ELK ones.
Steve
Senior Member
I have used an Elk panel for the past 5 years and really enjoyed it. HAI made me an offer I could not refuse and I am in the middle of converting over to an OmniProII (my Elk phone circuit was dead and I had to move locations anyway). I am still learning things about HAI and I will do a hopefully detailed showcase with alot of comparison info but let me share just a few quick thoughts.
On support, they both currently do a good job. A diy'er can get support from either company but you can get almost all the support you need right here on these forums. There are plenty of Elk and HAI users that know their stuff and my feeling is you only really need the mfg for very specific info. So I would call that one a tie.
Now just a few high level comments on your other thought...
Of course this is MY OPINION, based on my experiences, circumstances, etc so it may have slightly different meaning to you, but in a very high level nutshell in the CURRENT state of affairs, I think HAI is ahead as far as complete turnkey systems. That means breath of components and their integration. Does that mean Elk is bad, certainly not but HAI is a better overall complete package.
HAI also crams alot into a small space if that's what you need. You can get 5 serial ports, ethernet, 48 input zones and 8 outputs all in the same footprint as the main board. That may or may not be important to you. I personally like the integrated serial ports and ethernet, however I don't really like the setup of the input zones. I like to space things out and have easy access to everything rather than have to cram it all into a 14 or 28" can. In that regard I actually like Elk's hardware setup better. With Elk, all I/O cards are simply connected to the system via the RS485 bus using simple/standard 22/4 wire so you can easily put expansion cards anyplace you want. With HAI, again IMO they use a much less efficient interconnect system. Hardwire (Input) expanders get stacked on the main board and connect via 20 pin ribbon cable. That great but if you want to put it elsewhere, you have to find and order the cables. The voice card is absolutely disgusting IMO. Their design is to mount it on the short side of a can and it plugs into the main board with an 8 pin connector, but the thing that is horrible is that the cable is FIXED ONTO THE VOICE CARD. You can't even use your own cables like the hardwire expanders. And on top of that, the cable uses stiff solid wire that feels as if it will break if you bend it too much. I was actually shocked and surprised at this design. At the very least interface cards should all have standard headers, but I like the ability to use regular 22/4 and mount components anywhere I want. So in that regard I think HAI is stuck in the 80's with their interconnects while Elk is much more modern and flexible in that respect. But again, if you follow standard compact layout, it will work fine. Another plus for Elk is in add on components. You can add input zones or outputs independently and inexpensively in groups of 16. With HAI you can have 2 16 zone input expanders but then you have to buy an expensive expansion enclosure that has 16 inputs, 16 outputs and other circuitry (like its own power supply and battery backup) that imo is unnecessary for adding things to the same can. So again I feel Elk is ahead in the area of hardware expandability/flexibility. I also think the Elk keypads like the KP2 are more modern and functional than the single HAI console. And last, Zone configuration on the Elk is more flexible, like you can configure each individual zone as NO, NC or EOL. On the Omni there is a 'resistors' setting and if you use a single EOL or NO contact on any of the first 48 zones then you need to turn EOL on and have one on ALL zones. In my case my very original builder panel had all the EOLs in the panel and it would be extremely difficult to go put them at the contact where they belong (most windows are alarmed screens). So, if I need a single NO or EOL zone I will have to resort to putting EOLs in the panel which I simply refuse to do. Now, in new construction or even some retrofits it makes sense to use EOLs anyway in which case this isn't an issue but for me its about the choice and flexibility.
That's probably more detail than I wanted to get into now but I thought it may help in your decision making. No matter how it sounds they are actually BOTH GREAT SYSTEMS and you can't go wrong with either. Just be aware of some of the details in case that may affect your decision.
Thanks Steve. I really appreciate your writeup. We just started construction and I am quickly approaching the time where I will have to make a lot of decisions for panel, wiring etc and I am now getting into the nuts and bolts. I just stumbled into http://www.worthingtonu.com/ and I am going thru some of their tutorials. So I'll be asking more questions soon.
Thanks again
pete_c
Guru
Steve, Nice write up.
Worthington does have a nice forum to learn.
The beginning of your endeavor involves mostly just infrastructure (whether for HA or security), choosing a location, etc. You'll get lots of info from this forum and its always good. I personally like to have less loops and more individual zones for security areas which the panels allow (whether a door, window, IR, etc).
In the MW purchased a home about 6 years ago with no infrastructure. I pulled all of the cable to the basement in a two story home and created a utility section (which also includes water, heat, etc). The methodology I chose allows me to add cabling to 2nd floor and main floor still today. In this home just the audio was an endeavor in itself with pairs of speakers in each room and utilization of 16/4, 16/2 and CAT5 just for audio. I've always preferred using wired connections and only used wireless as a last resort. Once my basement is finished it will be a bit more difficult. With this flexibility I've been adding LCD TV's either high on a wall or low - easy to do. In FL after the fact it becomes a bit more of an endeavor to add electric / LCD cabling high on a wall making it look just right.
In FL I was able to decide where the central point of presence was before the home was built and wired HA and security during construction. In one way it was nice. I have had to "add" to my original HA wiring and its a bit more difficult after the fact in this one story home. I only have an attic to play with for additional infrastructure. The attic is large but with about 2 feet of blown insulation makes it a bit difficult to add. In addition the wall are all 9 foot and greater which also makes it a bit more difficult. Funny too in a way - I did what I could 8 years ago and see today how much some of the technology has changed. None the less the most wire run is Cat5 and that still works for me today. (in addition to RG6, 16/4. 16/2, 22/2,22/4 etc). Doubling a lot of the wire has helped me some relative to the rooms in the home.
Worthington does have a nice forum to learn.
The beginning of your endeavor involves mostly just infrastructure (whether for HA or security), choosing a location, etc. You'll get lots of info from this forum and its always good. I personally like to have less loops and more individual zones for security areas which the panels allow (whether a door, window, IR, etc).
In the MW purchased a home about 6 years ago with no infrastructure. I pulled all of the cable to the basement in a two story home and created a utility section (which also includes water, heat, etc). The methodology I chose allows me to add cabling to 2nd floor and main floor still today. In this home just the audio was an endeavor in itself with pairs of speakers in each room and utilization of 16/4, 16/2 and CAT5 just for audio. I've always preferred using wired connections and only used wireless as a last resort. Once my basement is finished it will be a bit more difficult. With this flexibility I've been adding LCD TV's either high on a wall or low - easy to do. In FL after the fact it becomes a bit more of an endeavor to add electric / LCD cabling high on a wall making it look just right.
In FL I was able to decide where the central point of presence was before the home was built and wired HA and security during construction. In one way it was nice. I have had to "add" to my original HA wiring and its a bit more difficult after the fact in this one story home. I only have an attic to play with for additional infrastructure. The attic is large but with about 2 feet of blown insulation makes it a bit difficult to add. In addition the wall are all 9 foot and greater which also makes it a bit more difficult. Funny too in a way - I did what I could 8 years ago and see today how much some of the technology has changed. None the less the most wire run is Cat5 and that still works for me today. (in addition to RG6, 16/4. 16/2, 22/2,22/4 etc). Doubling a lot of the wire has helped me some relative to the rooms in the home.
After doing more and more research, I think that my needs are leaning toward the Elk M1 right now.
Is it possible to buy the Elk without the Enclosure that comes with the kit?
I was looking at a Larger Structured wiring box, like the Leviton 28" or a 48" box to Make sure I had PLENTY of room for future Exandibility.
All of the M1's I have seen are sold in "Kit" form, with a keybad and Enclosure, that's why I was wondering if it could be purchased Separate.
Is it possible to buy the Elk without the Enclosure that comes with the kit?
I was looking at a Larger Structured wiring box, like the Leviton 28" or a 48" box to Make sure I had PLENTY of room for future Exandibility.
All of the M1's I have seen are sold in "Kit" form, with a keybad and Enclosure, that's why I was wondering if it could be purchased Separate.
WayneW
Senior Member
Steve
Senior Member
I would go as big as possible on the can. You can easily fill a 50" enclosure with just Elk or HAI stuff if you spread it out and have wire mgmt. I have a 50" can dedicated to just HAI and another 50" can that will have all the data/cable/phone/misc stuff. I also have a 14" can (old Elk can) that I dedicated to power. Sometimes it pays to just get the SYSG4 kit and use that can for something else like a separate power supply and batteries.
Neurorad
Senior Member
The bigger the better.
Figure out which enclosure manufacturer you would like to use, OnQ v Leviton v Channel Vision.
I went with Channel Vision, and now I'm having second thoughts. I loved their 2" depth extension ring concept, but it turns out Leviton has the same thing, and lots more.
Channel Vision is slightly cheaper than Leviton, for the basic components. Channel Vision has a relatively poor selection of snap-in 'modules', but they cover the basics - which is all most people really need.
If you have the time, and really want to save money, much of the structured wiring components, inside the enclosure, can be bought used on ebay.
Figure out which enclosure manufacturer you would like to use, OnQ v Leviton v Channel Vision.
I went with Channel Vision, and now I'm having second thoughts. I loved their 2" depth extension ring concept, but it turns out Leviton has the same thing, and lots more.
Channel Vision is slightly cheaper than Leviton, for the basic components. Channel Vision has a relatively poor selection of snap-in 'modules', but they cover the basics - which is all most people really need.
If you have the time, and really want to save money, much of the structured wiring components, inside the enclosure, can be bought used on ebay.
Steve
Senior Member
What do you say Leviton has lots more of vs CV poor selection? I've not found that to be true? What kinds of things do you see for Leviton but not CV? And you know - most Leviton Modules will fit into a CV can.
Okay, I have read back and forth on the Elk M1 vs the OmniPro II, and it's coming down to time to make a decision between which unit I want as the backbone of my system.
It seems that both will do exactly what I want, and both offer the future expandability I need.
The Elk seems to be the best for initial out of pocket expense, and will offer the best chance for me to "Jump Start" my system, but I guess, at this point the most important question is:
Which of the two units (Elk m1 Gold and OmniPro II) are the most DIY User friendly for installation, expansion, and Programming?
It seems that both will do exactly what I want, and both offer the future expandability I need.
The Elk seems to be the best for initial out of pocket expense, and will offer the best chance for me to "Jump Start" my system, but I guess, at this point the most important question is:
Which of the two units (Elk m1 Gold and OmniPro II) are the most DIY User friendly for installation, expansion, and Programming?
pete_c
Guru
I can't say much about Elk DIY programming but have just heard good things relating to said programming.
Recently purchased a newer flash upgradable Omni Pro II to replace my 6 year old Omni Pro II. My first endeavor was to program the board and check it out before installation.
I did "fat finger" the board by accidently connecting the 24VAC power supply to both a 24VAC terminal and 12VDC terminal in a semi dark room. I did cause damage to the board and had to send it in for repairs. It was repaired under warranty (thank you HAI).
I connected it yesterday (bare board on workbench) with just one console, network connection battery and 24VAC power supply. I did initial programming with console providing an IP to my network. I also changed the network encryption key. I connected to the panel with PC Access and uploaded current configuration from legacy panel. All of this took about 5-10 minutes. I am a DIYer and have not been formally trained in the use of the panel. I can say it was easy so far. Now comes the more difficult part of swapping the board. Because of its small footprint / small case it will be a bit time consuming. I plan on just swapping the terminal strips leaving the wires in place; this will help me some. On the other hand I am currently using legacy board plus one expansion board and its almost completely populated. I will need to bring the panel down to do this endeavor and will provide a time frame. I will do this today (day 2 of the OPII swap out). I am at capacity and will be adding another expansion board, console (touch screen) and wireless receiver (day 3).
One thing that I wish I had with the OPII panel that Elk panel has is time sync. While it can be done external to the panel I wish I could do it with the panel.
Historically worked on a commercial endeavor with a very small web interface for a Liebert server room CRAC unit. This module was a very small add on which provided much needed non serially connected features to my 20 ton Liebert HVAC unit control unit. None the less; I liked it so much that I purchased more of these for other Liebert server room CRAC units and was able to manage them with similiar UPS web interface units. I would prefer a feature like this that would fit into the existing small footprint panel and be an added and upgradable web interface to the panel versus a "built in" web interface.
Recently purchased a newer flash upgradable Omni Pro II to replace my 6 year old Omni Pro II. My first endeavor was to program the board and check it out before installation.
I did "fat finger" the board by accidently connecting the 24VAC power supply to both a 24VAC terminal and 12VDC terminal in a semi dark room. I did cause damage to the board and had to send it in for repairs. It was repaired under warranty (thank you HAI).
I connected it yesterday (bare board on workbench) with just one console, network connection battery and 24VAC power supply. I did initial programming with console providing an IP to my network. I also changed the network encryption key. I connected to the panel with PC Access and uploaded current configuration from legacy panel. All of this took about 5-10 minutes. I am a DIYer and have not been formally trained in the use of the panel. I can say it was easy so far. Now comes the more difficult part of swapping the board. Because of its small footprint / small case it will be a bit time consuming. I plan on just swapping the terminal strips leaving the wires in place; this will help me some. On the other hand I am currently using legacy board plus one expansion board and its almost completely populated. I will need to bring the panel down to do this endeavor and will provide a time frame. I will do this today (day 2 of the OPII swap out). I am at capacity and will be adding another expansion board, console (touch screen) and wireless receiver (day 3).
One thing that I wish I had with the OPII panel that Elk panel has is time sync. While it can be done external to the panel I wish I could do it with the panel.
Historically worked on a commercial endeavor with a very small web interface for a Liebert server room CRAC unit. This module was a very small add on which provided much needed non serially connected features to my 20 ton Liebert HVAC unit control unit. None the less; I liked it so much that I purchased more of these for other Liebert server room CRAC units and was able to manage them with similiar UPS web interface units. I would prefer a feature like this that would fit into the existing small footprint panel and be an added and upgradable web interface to the panel versus a "built in" web interface.
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