Going w/ Zigbee over Z-wave.. any thoughts?

[pete_c]

In the late seventies when I did start to play with X10; thinking it might have been BSR or Radio Shack modules I did have some issues with them in a house in a country with less than stellar electricity. 
 
That said though maybe only 1-2 X10 switches went out in a period of about 4 years mostly though because of lightning damage.
 
Just recently I did have a voltage debacle in my home (last summer).  The UPB and Z-Wave switches did OK and all of them continued to work after the debacle.  I did have a couple of UPB lamp modules that appeared to be disfunctional until I reset them; then they were fine.
 
I still had much Insteon in the house; albeit, it was first gen Insteon.   All of the Insteon switches became unusable/disfunctional.

 

[Dean Roddey]

I don't think that anyone would argue that wired is the optimal scenario if it's feasible. Any time each sub-system has its own 'private line' to talk on, the system does become easier to diagnose since the factors are greatly reduced. And likely speed will be better since it's not a shared medium.

 

[BrownChiLD]

Yes mostly HA stuff is mfg in China these days.  Designs are from here, mfg there, limited and controlled distribution here.  Heck even distributed here devices put a made in the USA sticker on them when in fact if you look at the circuit board you will see where its source of origin is.
 
Personally I've always considered UL approval ranked up there.  Not so these days. 
 
Do a google search on the differences between UL approval done for CCFL lighting in the US and Canada.   
 
My first "foray" into Z-Wave sorted of dinged my efforts.  I went to external light and appliance modules.  One day I replaced an x10 lamp switch that was behind a couch (difficult to move) with a new Z-Wave switch made by a well known US MFG. (a relative term these days).  Geez; I had been using their timers for parking lot illumination timers since the 1970's.
 
I was home when I saw this happen.  The flash was bright enough to be seen around the sides of the couch.  This could have started a fire.  The MFG was kind and did replace the switch within a couple of weeks.  Even though this is a rare occurance I replaced z-wave light switch with a UPB light switch and have not had any issues to date.

sheet that's scary.. but i have seen a post before saying a UPB module did burn up as well, or atleast sparked.. so i guess that evens the odds?
 

I don't think I have seen what country you are in, but would you consider a powerline system over wireless?
 
HAI's OmniBus is made for 220v 50Hz power grids....
http://homeauto.com/Products/OmniBus/OmniBus.asp

 
I'm n the Philippines, single phase, 220v power profile.

I have had UPB in my choices but I ultimately decided to go w/ z-wave for a more straightforward and cheaper solution , and can do battery powered stuffs as well from locks to sensors.. (although im now thinking of zigbee or 433Mhz devices.hMmm) .. i've not heard of anyone trying UPB in my country, so i'm not sure how that will pan out.. plus the risk for interferances and stuff.. If i plan to put UPB tech in an apartment or condominum w/ some sort of odd power line configuration or something (im not really an EE guy)  then that's just making things more complicated.. RF devices seem to be the way to go for me. .


Anyway, as an update, So far for now i'm back on the Z-wave band wagon.. i just got tired of dealing w the profile differences and uncertain interoperability.. my only concern now is if our Government's telecomunications agency wants money for each Z-wave device i bring in.. that's gona kill my whole business idea.. and i'd just set it up for myself instead. (im sure the govt wont bother lil ol me)

 

 

[pete_c]

Yup; here over the years have overcome (not really) whatever LV / wireless / RF telecommunications stuff by using an in country supplier of vendor of said technology.  (years ago we built a call center there in the Philippines.).  Rather than deal with a imports broker it really did work out as more cost effective to deal with local vendors (IE; Cisco, HP, et al). 
 
Maybe you should find out what it takes to become a dealer of said devices in your country?
 
IE: In India for example we worked vendor that took care of all communications (land based and satellite) for the country.  (don't remember now if it was Tata ?) .  Three entities though were involved and sometimes it became a headache; IE: us (requestor of telcom (ground, satellite to ground or local RF services), SITA/Equant/Arinc, then Tata (not a happy bunch of folks - sometimes difficult to work with).  I do recall during rainy seasons the communications facilities would get flooded and disfunctional which did cause some major concerns. 
 
In Austrialia / New Zealand it was the same (local communications vendor Telstra - happy bunch of folks and a pleasure to work with).  I do recall some very long conference calls and speaking to the same folks all of the time.  

 

[neillt]

What makes me chuckle is I have been to several parts of the Philippines, trying to use C band Satellite Comms and being unable because someone was blasting out terrestrial stuff in the section clearly designated as satellite only.
 
It's probably the "dirtiest" RF environment I have ever seen; people are clearly not following the rules as it is, at least outside of Manila and Angeles City.

 

[BrownChiLD]

Yup; here over the years have overcome (not really) whatever LV / wireless / RF telecommunications stuff by using an in country supplier of vendor of said technology.  (years ago we built a call center there in the Philippines.).  Rather than deal with a imports broker it really did work out as more cost effective to deal with local vendors (IE; Cisco, HP, et al). 
 
Maybe you should find out what it takes to become a dealer of said devices in your country?
 
IE: In India for example we worked vendor that took care of all communications (land based and satellite) for the country.  (don't remember now if it was Tata ?) .  Three entities though were involved and sometimes it became a headache; IE: us (requestor of telcom (ground, satellite to ground or local RF services), SITA/Equant/Arinc, then Tata (not a happy bunch of folks - sometimes difficult to work with).  I do recall during rainy seasons the communications facilities would get flooded and disfunctional which did cause some major concerns. 
 
In Austrialia / New Zealand it was the same (local communications vendor Telstra - happy bunch of folks and a pleasure to work with).  I do recall some very long conference calls and speaking to the same folks all of the time.  

Actually this is my aim, LEARN and MASTER "a technology" , then perhaps start a business of dealership of the tech. But I don't want to be wasting time on a tech if i cant take it to the next level. Specially since I am determined to develop my own GUI/Software for it (nothing beats custom made) .

Just curious, you said you built a call center. You stopped? What happened?  Coz i'm thinking of getting into Call center business myself.. I just gotta get the leads

 

What makes me chuckle is I have been to several parts of the Philippines, trying to use C band Satellite Comms and being unable because someone was blasting out terrestrial stuff in the section clearly designated as satellite only.
 
It's probably the "dirtiest" RF environment I have ever seen; people are clearly not following the rules as it is, at least outside of Manila and Angeles City.

 

haha, you said it man. To be honest the regulatory Agency is considered quite a joke in our country to have such restricting laws over wireless communications. The law was drafted poorly and no one is seeking to improve on it.. I'm not a lawyer but there as been tons of heat about contradicting and too restrictive stipulations..

and not to mention one of the biggest blooper, that the Agency actually licensed 2.4Ghz, a world wide open freq, to a Power Company in the country. making every gawd damn router, bluetooth, and other 2.4Ghz device illegal unless that company releases its License. stupid huh?

The thing is , Agency isn't really strict on its laws.. w/c is a good thing since they themselves don't fully understand it (different official has different interpretations of their own law) ..
it's a good thing for small scale DIY like what im about to do.. but the bad thing is if I take this to the next level, they may surprise me w/ some fees and all that stuff..

I've been asking around as well as their branches/offices/people who work in the agency, plus doing research and it's not getting me anywhere!

also on one side, they say if your device is a low power/low transmit device, it does not need licensing (good since Z-wave and other HA devices are low transmit right?)
but there's been reports of our customs stopping import or charging people hefty fees for their 433Mhz and other devices (toys and 2-way radios, and what nots)

So it's really inconsistent and down right confusing..




 

 

[pete_c]

Yup; the call center was an airlines reservation office along with other stuff (airport(s))......

 

[az1324]

Not sure if this is up to date but:
 
http://www.ntc.gov.ph/laws/mc/MC%202000/MC%2019-12-2000.pdf
 
Sections 11, 13, & 14
 
You certify each unique product once for 1580PHP by submitting the existing FCC/CE test report from the manufacturer
You pay for a radio dealers license 2100PHP
You pay an import fee on each shipment of 240PHP
 
Doesn't seem too big of a deal.

 

[thechop66]

Zigbee devices use a particular 'profile', which defines the format and meaning of the msgs exchanged. Companies can use a predefined profile, such as the home automation profile, but they don't have to. 
 
And some if it may be because it's one thing to be a manufacturer of a light switch, and another to be the manufacturer of an automation system. The former may be happy to fit into any system that supports the HA profile, while the later may have lots of stuff they want to communicate between the parts of their own system that is outside that standardized profile. That's just speculation on my part, I don't know if that's really true or not.
 
What I don't fully understand is the supporting of multiple profiles simultaneously. 

 
You hit on some interesting points here, Dean:
 
You're right about multiple protocols within ZigBee.  As a manufacturer you can choose to certify Home Automation (HA), Smart Energy (SE) or any of the rest but there are companies who use the ZigBee radio without a profile (Control4 being an example).  So they're technically using ZigBee but they layer on their own tech to make it semi-proprietary.  
 
So essentially products within the profiles should be interoperable.  An HA device should work with an HA device etc.  Though with different manufacturers, sometimes the actuation of ZigBee messages is slightly unique so one manufacturer's HA gateway may need to be tweaked to communicate properly with another manufacturer's HA product.  However, if you choose the right gateway that's built with open architecture and a philosophy of inclusiveness behind it, you can request inclusion of other manufacturer's products.  
 
As to why support multiple profiles, the answer is mainly tied to Smart Energy, specifically Smart Meters.  Utility companies need to be assured that they have an especially secure means of communication (not that other profiles aren't secure, just that when it comes to government and public utilities there's an understandable desire for extra secure) from Smart Meters to devices for demand response etc.  If all ZigBee devices needed that layer of security, my guess is price point would be driven up for folks who perhaps don't want/ need an SE network.  Thus multiple profiles.  
 
You're right that you would need a gateway or solution that operates on multiple profiles to control a mixture of devices.  At the moment I know my company has a solution where an SE usb driver could be inserted into an HA gateway and you would be able to control a mixture of profiles from the same platform.  It essentially acts as a singular control point from the user's perspective.

 

[BrownChiLD]

Yup; the call center was an airlines reservation office along with other stuff (airport(s))......

 
ahh.. cool cool.

Not sure if this is up to date but:
 
http://www.ntc.gov.ph/laws/mc/MC%202000/MC%2019-12-2000.pdf
 
Sections 11, 13, & 14
 
You certify each unique product once for 1580PHP by submitting the existing FCC/CE test report from the manufacturer
You pay for a radio dealers license 2100PHP
You pay an import fee on each shipment of 240PHP
 
Doesn't seem too big of a deal.

wow, awesome man. ill look into this .. great stuff!
 

You hit on some interesting points here, Dean:
 
You're right about multiple protocols within ZigBee.  As a manufacturer you can choose to certify Home Automation (HA), Smart Energy (SE) or any of the rest but there are companies who use the ZigBee radio without a profile (Control4 being an example).  So they're technically using ZigBee but they layer on their own tech to make it semi-proprietary.  
 
So essentially products within the profiles should be interoperable.  An HA device should work with an HA device etc.  Though with different manufacturers, sometimes the actuation of ZigBee messages is slightly unique so one manufacturer's HA gateway may need to be tweaked to communicate properly with another manufacturer's HA product.  However, if you choose the right gateway that's built with open architecture and a philosophy of inclusiveness behind it, you can request inclusion of other manufacturer's products.  
 
As to why support multiple profiles, the answer is mainly tied to Smart Energy, specifically Smart Meters.  Utility companies need to be assured that they have an especially secure means of communication (not that other profiles aren't secure, just that when it comes to government and public utilities there's an understandable desire for extra secure) from Smart Meters to devices for demand response etc.  If all ZigBee devices needed that layer of security, my guess is price point would be driven up for folks who perhaps don't want/ need an SE network.  Thus multiple profiles.  
 
You're right that you would need a gateway or solution that operates on multiple profiles to control a mixture of devices.  At the moment I know my company has a solution where an SE usb driver could be inserted into an HA gateway and you would be able to control a mixture of profiles from the same platform.  It essentially acts as a singular control point from the user's perspective.

 

Yeh, all that considered, Zibee seems to complicate my options.. unless i stick to 1 manufacturer, w/c i don't want to do.


I am slightly starting to consider 433 devices though as they seem to be way way cheaper (something that my local market would be more able to throw money at)

 

[ano]

While there are many protocol "stacks" in Zigbee, don't let this scare you off.  Bluetooth actually works the same way with multiple software stacks.  The only Zigbee protocols your likely to come across are Home Automation (HA), Smart Energy (SE), and proprietary, like Control 4.  Smart Energy was designed by utilities wanting to give you meter info and wanting to control your high-use devices remotely.  Typically the only place you can by Smart Energy devices is from your utility.  What you need to look for is devices that support Home Automation (HA).  ANY of these devices WILL inter-operate with each other no matter who the manufacturer is.  But also note that inter-operate does NOT mean all features are supported.
 
Here is an example. I have ZigBee on my HAI Omni Pro II, and control my ZigBee Kwickset door locks (3), Zigbee Omnistat 2 thermostats (3), and can control my ZigBee appliance modules.  I have 1 HAI appliance module and 2 Smartenit appliance modules. The HAI can control all my appliance modules, because they all are on the HA profile, BUT the HAI panel can only read the power usage of the HAI appliance module.  The Smartenit appliance modules also provide power used, as written in the Zigbee standard, but the HAI can not read it. This is because power used is considered a feature function, and HAI hasn't bothered to support the feature from Smartenit. 
 
So if you stick to HA Zigbee devices, you can at least be assured they will work, but you can't be guaranteed that all their added features work.

 

[az1324]

Dont forget about the new Zigbee IP aka SE 2.0 which is mostly 6LoWPAN and requires not only a bridge to SE 1.0 but also to the rest of SE 2.0 which can run on WiFi, homeplug and other standards.

 

[thechop66]

While there are many protocol "stacks" in Zigbee, don't let this scare you off.  Bluetooth actually works the same way with multiple software stacks.  The only Zigbee protocols your likely to come across are Home Automation (HA), Smart Energy (SE), and proprietary, like Control 4.  Smart Energy was designed by utilities wanting to give you meter info and wanting to control your high-use devices remotely.  Typically the only place you can by Smart Energy devices is from your utility.  What you need to look for is devices that support Home Automation (HA).  ANY of these devices WILL inter-operate with each other no matter who the manufacturer is.  But also note that inter-operate does NOT mean all features are supported.
 
Here is an example. I have ZigBee on my HAI Omni Pro II, and control my ZigBee Kwickset door locks (3), Zigbee Omnistat 2 thermostats (3), and can control my ZigBee appliance modules.  I have 1 HAI appliance module and 2 Smartenit appliance modules. The HAI can control all my appliance modules, because they all are on the HA profile, BUT the HAI panel can only read the power usage of the HAI appliance module.  The Smartenit appliance modules also provide power used, as written in the Zigbee standard, but the HAI can not read it. This is because power used is considered a feature function, and HAI hasn't bothered to support the feature from Smartenit. 
 
So if you stick to HA Zigbee devices, you can at least be assured they will work, but you can't be guaranteed that all their added features work.

 
Sorry, lost track of the thread.  But yes, these are excellent points.  Though a couple things to note:
 
1) Control4 (and other propriatries) Technically the proprietary ZigBee companies (like Control4) aren't really a profile.  I mean I suppose they sort of make themselves into pseudo profiles.  But basically they are using a ZigBee radio but layer on so much other proprietary technology that it's only operates within that closed system.  There are ways to incorporate other ZigBee devices into that system with a Control4 driver but not the other way around as of yet.
 
2) Smart Energy Devices- These are actually made by the manufacturers (other than the Smart Meters; those you DO have to get from your utility).  They are then often approved by particular utility companies and often listed on their sites as part of rebate deal partnerships (this might be where some of the confusion as to who is distributing comes from).  The ZigBee alliance lists the Smart Energy devices here  http://zigbee.org/Products/ByFunction/AllFunctions.aspx (Just select ZigBee Smart Energy from the "Standard" dropdown)

 

[ano]

Sorry, lost track of the thread.  But yes, these are excellent points.  Though a couple things to note:
 
1) Control4 (and other propriatries) Technically the proprietary ZigBee companies (like Control4) aren't really a profile.  I mean I suppose they sort of make themselves into pseudo profiles.  But basically they are using a ZigBee radio but layer on so much other proprietary technology that it's only operates within that closed system.  There are ways to incorporate other ZigBee devices into that system with a Control4 driver but not the other way around as of yet.

 
Control4 is not as un-Zigbee-like as you imply. 
 
The physical layer that Zigbee uses is IEEE 802.15.4. Other products use that physical layer as well. One example is RF4CE which is being used by Sony, DirecTV, and other for RF remote controls. (Just got a DirecTV Genie system and the RF4CE works nice.) Now the 802.15.4 physical layer ONLY provides point-to-point communication.  If Control4 ONLY used ZigBee's physical layer, like RF4CE does, then it would be point-to-point ONLY. 
 
The Zigbee specification is built on top of the 802.15.4 layer and provide many functions including mesh networking, robust routing, firmware upgrades, etc. all the things to support wide networking. Control4 supports ALL of this. What it doesn't support is the application layers that tell a device how to interpret commands, like turn on a light in the HA profile or control an insulin pump with the Zigbee Healthcare profile. Control4 data packets WILL be forwarded by a Zigbee HA profile thermostat or a Smart Energy profile smart meter.  Also, HA data packets WILL be forwarded by Control4 Zigbee devices.  The only thing that separates Control4 Zigbee devices from HA Zigbee devices is how to interpret the data packets.  The same is true for any two Zigbee profiles. A Zigbee Health Care device has absolutely no way to interpret HA profile data. The the HA Zigbee profile is an open standard, the Control4 profile is proprietary.    
 

 

 

[elmerbug1]

All,
I'm building a home in the southern Philippines and am running into a Catch-22:
1) If I want to use Z-Wave, I can't seem to find light switches/dimmers that are 220V 60Hz
2) If I want to use Zigbee, I can find 220V 60Hz switches and dimmers, but they are meant for Euro electrical boxes.  Philippines uses US standard boxes.
 
I'd prefer to use all Zigbee, but Z-Wave would be ok as well.  Any advice for me?
Thanks,
Don