HA: Is there really minimal "new" in last 7 years?

[IVB]

castleos, homeseer, cqc, whatever control mechanism you use are bandaids around the interoperability issue.
 
Its work to acquire knowledge about an rPi.
 
so to summarize this thread to-date, there has been little to zero meaningful change in the HA space in 7 years. There's still the same who's-dick-is-bigger in both the hardware space and the software space. Nobody plays with anyone else. Back then it used to be Insteon getting crapped on with UPB as the path forward, now its zWave getting crapped on but zigbee is the way. Meanwhile, consumers are expected to rip out thousands of dollars of equipment all at once to go to the next big thing. I wouldn't mind spending another few thousand on parts that I knew would be re-usable, but I have no desire to hope and pray and gamble yet again.
 
Sounds like its time to go back to sleep for another 7 years, my system will still probably do more than 90% of folks...

 

[jkmonroe]

castleos, homeseer, cqc, whatever control mechanism you use are bandaids around the interoperability issue.
 
Its work to acquire knowledge about an rPi.
 
so to summarize this thread to-date, there has been little to zero meaningful change in the HA space in 7 years. There's still the same who's-dick-is-bigger in both the hardware space and the software space. Nobody plays with anyone else. Back then it used to be Insteon getting crapped on with UPB as the path forward, now its zWave getting crapped on but zigbee is the way. Meanwhile, consumers are expected to rip out thousands of dollars of equipment all at once to go to the next big thing. I wouldn't mind spending another few thousand on parts that I knew would be re-usable, but I have no desire to hope and pray and gamble yet again.
 
Sounds like its time to go back to sleep for another 7 years, my system will still probably do more than 90% of folks...

 
eeehh ... i disagree about this - interoperability *is* built into these standards (if not, why API and serial devices?), but they require the use of a product like CQC or a hub like SmartThings.  there is nothing wrong with this approach, and it does make some sense because there really isn't a one-size-fits-all solution (Insteon notwithstanding).  the ISY is probably the best of the bridge-like devices - it can work with Insteon, ZWave, and (as I learned today) Zigbee.
 
but yeah, in the end you're right.  there haven't been any changes significant enough to warrant change.  

 

[IVB]

eeehh ... i disagree about this - interoperability *is* built into these standards (if not, why API and serial devices?), but they require the use of a product like CQC or a hub like SmartThings.  there is nothing wrong with this approach, and it does make some sense because there really isn't a one-size-fits-all solution (Insteon notwithstanding).  the ISY is probably the best of the bridge-like devices - it can work with Insteon, ZWave, and (as I learned today) Zigbee.
 
but yeah, in the end you're right.  there haven't been any changes significant enough to warrant change.  

 
The answer to "zWave sucks" is "rip out all your devices and put in something else. And hope that works".  How is that improvement?  You're still going to have piss fights about who's got the moar better software or control mechanism. Life might be 1% better,  but not enough to be noticeable. Except for maybe cost, its cheaper to put in a crapshoot now than it was before.
 
I go back to my WiFi example yet again. If that technology, or even more basic, TCP, was treated the same way HA was, we'd all still be using long ass wires. Until HA hardware manufacturers understand this, the market will rightfully stay small.

 

[pete_c]

castleos, homeseer, cqc, whatever control mechanism you use are band aids around the interoperability issue.

 
That is not true. 
 
The software today is the only means of interoperability for the very reason that Nobody plays with anyone else.
 

Its work to acquire knowledge about an RPi.

 
Yup; its more difficult than installing a widget on your telephone. 
 
The difficulties I see mostly relate to folks who want nothing to do with Linux.  Well similarly to those Windows folks that want nothing to do with Macs or that Mac person that wants nothing to do with Windows.
 
The Rasberry Pi was introduced as a low cost computer that anybody can purchase for $35. 
 
That alone has started much of what we see today as low cost automation for the masses.
 

Meanwhile, consumers are expected to rip out thousands of dollars of equipment all at once to go to the next big thing.

 
Automation for the masses is still a niche market in its infancy and not ready for prime time. 
 
There won't be many consumer ripping out thousands of dollars of equipment because they do not exist yet.
 
There are automation geeks out there that automated their homes back in the 1980's with X10 and today they are still using it just fine.  Same with many folks that have automated with Insteon, Z-Wave and lately Zigbee.
 
BTW WiFi hasn't really changed that much at all.  It is more secure and it can have more bandwidth but its still wireless.
 
Every revision of the standards has made it better; but it is no replacement for the wire yet. (802.11AC isn't all that it was meant to be yet).

 

[IVB]

I did all that 7 years ago. Not via an rPi, but thats a non-issue as it doesn't get me anything I don't already have, and the lack of having one doesn't have an impact.  I don't understand how a "technology" focused industry can have zero effective progress in customers eyes in 7 years, and I have yet to see anyone say anything that makes me think it might materially get better in the next 3 years. Thats 10 years of effective stagnation in terms of customer stories.
 
Thats pretty sad.

 

[pete_c]

I don't understand how a "technology" focused industry can have zero effective progress in customers eyes in 7 years,

 
Probably more related to the economy that tanked 7 years ago and still stagnating.

 

[ChrisCicc]

 the ISY is probably the best of the bridge-like devices - it can work with Insteon, ZWave, and (as I learned today) Zigbee.

 
In fairness and with all due respect to UD, the ISY is the best INSTEON controller (by far, including CastleOS and INSTEON's own), but it doesn't extend further than that. They don't have an internal abstraction layer between the protocols, so you end up with a list of INSTEON devices, and a list of Z-Wave devices. And their GUI leaves quite a bit to be desired. That said, I'm still working to make CastleOS support all the intricacies of INSTEON that the ISY does so well... 

 

[NeverDie]

This thread is starting to sound rather similar to a previous thread:  http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/27336-frustrated-with-home-automation-software/?hl=%20home%20%20automation%20%20software%20%20frustrating

 

[jkmonroe]

hahah.  a forum full of home automation enthusiasts, all of whom are frustrated with home automation technologies.
 

 

[Dean Roddey]

castleos, homeseer, cqc, whatever control mechanism you use are bandaids around the interoperability issue.
 
Its work to acquire knowledge about an rPi.

 
I wouldn't say that. Unless you have a world in which every device utilizes the same protocol, and every device can understand every other device and how it might interact with all types of devices, there has to be some sort of central controller. Those systems designed to avoid any sort of central controller will necessarily be limited, both in terms of how many real world devices it can support (since it requires that everyone use their protocol, which is not likely) and in terms of how powerful it can be, since there's nowhere to store highly customized setup. Storing it around in each of the individual devices would be ugly. Not only did your keypad die, but the setup that was in it got lost as well.
 
Though there will be some form of success for such systems in terms of selling simple setups (allota alliteration) to end users, anyone serious about automation will have to go beyond that to do 'real' automation.
 
And, I would also say that, even if everything used the same protocol, and that protocol somehow managed to define useable, complete virtual views of all the types of devices we all want to use (and those virtual views were completely consistently implemented by all vendors), it would still be along way from auto-magical interaction. Someone has to know what 'night mode' means, or what "watch TV' means, that TempSensorA1 is the kitchen interior temp, how you like your martinis made, and to configure all those devices to do what is required to make those things happen. And that central processor still has to have built into it knowledge of all of those possible types of devices and how to deal with them. The fact that they speak the same language doesn't automatically make them all understand all of the subjects that can be discussed in that language.
 
Given that that you already really have to have that central processor, and that it will still require human intervention to do anything beyond the happy clappy demo stage, and that those central processors can inherently provide the interaction and translation between devices, we don't really need the all seeing, all dancing, ubiquitously implemented protocol. As others have said, it would be hard to consider a single protocol that would be appropriate for everything from an Omni to a media server to a Wifi door sensor.
 
Even if huge numbers of devices started supporting a common protocol, those folks looking to really do serious automation would still be needing the universal translation, and smart home'ish configuration capabilities of the central controller anyway.

 

[linuxha]

hahah.  a forum full of home automation enthusiasts, all of whom are frustrated with home automation technologies.
 

Wait are you suggesting that there is some place that exists without the frustration? Surely you jest!

 

[pete_c]

Personally I am content and not at all frustrated with my automation as many Cocoontech members are. 
 
It is a hobby for me and I like to play.
 
A large majority of the forum users are home automation enthusists here. 
 
The original post here was:
 
HA: Is there really minimal "new" in last 7 years?
 
It stimulated a lively honest conversation of a few folks here that also consider automation a hobby, vendors of software and commercial vendors of automation.
 
The question related to mostly a structured interplay between different automation widgets. 
 
It's not soup yet relating to the different techologies; that said even the want of automation is still far away.
 
There are newbees that come here and ask about automating a new home.  Many newbees are also DIYers.  Many come here for the easy answers.  The answers do not exist yet that I know of no matter what verbiage is utilized. 
 
The board has documents relating to how to create an infrastructure for automation and enthusists who make suggestions based on their own historicals.

 

[linuxha]

hahah.  a forum full of home automation enthusiasts, all of whom are frustrated with home automation technologies.
 

Wait are you suggesting that there is some HA place that exists without the frustration? Surely you jest!

 

[linuxha]

hahah.  a forum full of home automation enthusiasts, all of whom are frustrated with home automation technologies.
 

Wait are you suggesting that there is some HA place that exists without the frustration? Surely you jest!

 

[garyfunk]

hahah.  a forum full of home automation enthusiasts, all of whom are frustrated with home automation technologies.
 

That's like saying;

A world full of loving parents that are frustrated with their children.