HAI 2 WIRE SMOKES
- Thread starter premiernic
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Steve
Senior Member
First, you need to be clear on what you want.
1. Do you need sounders built in to the smoke detector, or will you use other noisemakers like piezo screamers or interior siren or voice announcements or any combination?
2. Do you NEED/WANT the cleaning/maintenance signal. I believe this just trips a zone to alert you if a detector is in need of cleaning. I'm not sure, but an LED on the detector itself may flash or something as well (would need to look that up)
3. IF you need/want detectors with built in sounders, do you need/want ALL of the detectors to sound simultaneously in synchronization if any one detector gets tripped.
Once you answer those ?'s definitively, we can figure out the best approach.
premiernic
Member
I at this point dont care if all the sounders work. I have the screamers. I do not really need anything but the system to work. Will it work with those smokes with the sounders built in? Shall I regroup and choose another smoke? Just need it to work!!!
Thanks for the help Steve
Steve the System Sensor Detectors with sounders are NOT on the list as compatible. I thought that was the detector in question. If I am mistaken sorry.
Steve
Senior Member
Ok, well the 2WT-B is certified and compatible and will work. The 2WTA-B is the same exact detector with a built in sounder. It also SHOULD work and I see no reason why it wouldn't. I also don't know if HAI supports the maintenance signal or not or what would happen if it is tripped.
The EASIEST thing to do is to just have your string of detectors (with EOL at the far end) simply hooked directly to the panel (Zone 1,2,3 or 4 only) and move the appropriate jumper. In this simple configuration if ANY of the detectors sense smoke and trip the panel should go into Fire Alarm mode. If THAT ONE INDIVIDUAL detector that tripped has a sounder (the 'A' model) then that detectors sounder only should go off). The rest kind of depends on how the rest of your system is setup. I'm not positive, but if the piezos are connected to the Interior sounder terminals they should go off, but they will also go off in a burglary situation. Alternatively if you only want the piezos to sound during a fire event, you should be able to hook them up to 12V thru a relay and output and write a rule that says when fire alarm, turn on x output and that should turn on the piezos. You would also need a corresponding rule to turn them off then the alarm was acknowledged. Someobody more familiar with HAI at this pointy can give you better more exact details. This is the simplest and least expensive way to get smokes online.
Now, if you want ALL of the detectors to have their own built in sounders and have them all go off in sync when any detector trips, then you need the RRS-MOD reversing relay (and perhaps the 2WMod, but I doubt it). If you wanted full support of the maintenance signal then you probably need to add the 2WMod (assuming HAI does not support maintenance signal directly).
Others with more specific HAI experience I'm sure will chime in if this is wrong (but I don't think it is). If you want to discuss this 'live' jump into the chat room.
The EASIEST thing to do is to just have your string of detectors (with EOL at the far end) simply hooked directly to the panel (Zone 1,2,3 or 4 only) and move the appropriate jumper. In this simple configuration if ANY of the detectors sense smoke and trip the panel should go into Fire Alarm mode. If THAT ONE INDIVIDUAL detector that tripped has a sounder (the 'A' model) then that detectors sounder only should go off). The rest kind of depends on how the rest of your system is setup. I'm not positive, but if the piezos are connected to the Interior sounder terminals they should go off, but they will also go off in a burglary situation. Alternatively if you only want the piezos to sound during a fire event, you should be able to hook them up to 12V thru a relay and output and write a rule that says when fire alarm, turn on x output and that should turn on the piezos. You would also need a corresponding rule to turn them off then the alarm was acknowledged. Someobody more familiar with HAI at this pointy can give you better more exact details. This is the simplest and least expensive way to get smokes online.
Now, if you want ALL of the detectors to have their own built in sounders and have them all go off in sync when any detector trips, then you need the RRS-MOD reversing relay (and perhaps the 2WMod, but I doubt it). If you wanted full support of the maintenance signal then you probably need to add the 2WMod (assuming HAI does not support maintenance signal directly).
Others with more specific HAI experience I'm sure will chime in if this is wrong (but I don't think it is). If you want to discuss this 'live' jump into the chat room.
Steve
Senior Member
Yea but that doesn't seem to be compatible with any system looking at the charts. While I can't swear to it, the only difference in the two is the sounder and I fail to see how that would make it incompatible except if the current draw from the sounder would overload the panel or something which I don't think it would. Of course HAI would have to say this for sure but I don't see anything wrong with it. Elk only states the same non 'A' model as compatible and my existing 2WTA-Bs work fine.
I have the system sensor specs for the 2WB and the 2WBT-A at work. I am 99% sure the specs are NOT the same.
The System Sensor Detector with sounder is compatible with the following per the System Sensor website. I know for a fact it is incomplete since I personally had UL test this detector with several panels a few years ago that are not on the list.
2-Wire Compatibility for System Sensor Model 2WTA-B
Manufacturer Panel Model Number
ADT Focus 200P, Focus 200PA, Focus Cadet, M302MADT, Safewatch Pro 2000, Safewatch Pro 3000, Unimode 10, Unimode 10UD, UNIMODE 200, Unimode 5, Unimode 5UD
Amerex SR-X, SR-XE
Ansul AutoPulse 542D, AutoPulse 542DE, AutoPulse 542R, AutoPulse 542RE
Chemetron Micro-1011, Micro-1011E, Micro-1012, Micro-1012E
Detection Systems DS400i, DS400M, DS7080i, DS7080iP32, DS9422
DSC CFP-102, CFP-105, P832, P832DL, PC5010, PC5015
Faraday 12400, 13200, 13400, 15220A, 15240A, FIREWATCH - 200, FIREWATCH - 400, FIREWATCH - 4000, FIREWATCH - II+2, MPC-2000
FCI AMM-4S, FC-10C, FC-2224, FC-4224, FC-5C, FC-6324, FC-73, MMI-6S
Fike Corporation GP-10UD, GP-5, GP-5UD
Fire-Lite M302, MMF-302, MMF-302-6, MP-24, MRP-2001, MRP-2001E, MRP-2002, MRP-2002E, MRP-4424, MS-10UD-3, MS-10UD-3E, MS-10UD-7, MS-10UD-7C, MS-10UD-7E, MS-2, MS-2410B, MS-2E, MS-4, MS-4424, MS-4424B, MS-4E, MS-5024, MS-5024UD, MS-5210UD, MS-5UD-3, MS-5UD-3E, MS-5UD-7, MS-5UD-7C, MS-5UD-7E, Sensiscan 200, Sensiscan 2000
First Alert FA1220CV, FA1340C, FA148CP, FA1500C, FA1600C, FA1600CA, FA160C, FA162C, FA1660C, FA168C, FA168CPS, FA1700C, FA2000C, FA2100C
Gamewell Flex 4, FLEX 405, FLEX 620, Flex 8, FS140
Gamewell-FCI AMM-4SF, Flex GF505, Flex GF510, MMI-6SF
Harrington HS-2100, HS-2200, HS-2402, HS-2800, HS-3030
Honeywell TC841A1000, XLS-MM-Z, XLS140-2(E), XLS3000
Honeywell Security (Ademco) 4140XMP, 4140XMPT, 4140XMPT-2, 4209U, 5110XM, 5120XM, VISTA 128B, VISTA 128FB, VISTA 15, VISTA 15P, VISTA 20, VISTA 20BAY, VISTA 20HWSE, VISTA 20P, VISTA 20SE, VISTA 32FB, VISTA 40, VISTA 50, VISTA 50P, VISTA 50PADT, VISTA 50PUL, VISTA A, VISTA AMT3, VISTA CN, VISTA HW, VISTA PULADT
Johnson Control IFC-320(E), IFC2-3030(E), IFC2-640(E), M302MJ, M502MJ
Mircom Technologies Ltd. FA-1008KA, FA-1012KA, FA-101A, FA-101U, FA-1025A, FA-1025U, FA-102A, FA-102U, FA-202, FA-202U, FA-204E, FA-204EU, FA-2600, SGM-1004A
Napco FW-C2Z, FW-C4EZ, FW-C4Z
Notifier AFP-100, AFP-1010, AFP200, AFP400, AFP600, AM2020, FZM-1, NFS-3030, NFS-320, NFS-640, NFS2-3030(E), NFS2-640(E), NZM-100, NZM-100-6, RP-1001, RP-1002, RP-2001, RP-2001E, RP-2002, RP-2002E, Sensiscan 2000, SFP-1024, SFP-10UD, SFP-10UDC, SFP-10UDE, SFP-2402, SFP-2402E, SFP-2404, SFP-2404E, SFP-400, SFP-400B, SFP-5UD, SFP-5UDC, SFP-5UDE, SGL-2000, System 500, System 5000, XP TRANSPONDER, XP6-MA
Radionics D7022, D7024, D7024 or DS9400, D7212, D7412, D9112, D9412
Secutron MR-2602, MR-2605, MR-2616, MR-2900
Silent Knight 5204 Mfrd after 01/2002, 5207 Mfrd after 7/1995, 5820XL, 5895XL, IDP-Zone, IDP-Zone-6, IFP-1000, RPS-1000, SD500-SDM, SK-2, SK-2224, SK-2E, SK-4, SK-4224, SK-4E, SK-5208, SK-5UD, SK-5UDE, SK-6324
Summit SFC-102
System Sensor 2W-MOD2, M502M, PDRP-2001, PDRP-2001E
Viking PAR-4, PAR-4E
Steve
Senior Member
I am going to bow out of this. BOTTOM LINE: Check with HAI and/or System Sensor and do what you are comfortable with. Maybe there is some subtle difference in the sounder/no sounder, I don't know. Personally, I feel if they are hooked up and tested, that's good enough for me.
Here are the engineering specs on the 2WTA-B and here are the 2WT-B. I don't see a difference. I would be willing to bet the 2 are IDENTICAL except the A model has the piezo actually wired.
If you want to be absolutely positive, use the 2WT-B (without sounder) only.
Here are the engineering specs on the 2WTA-B and here are the 2WT-B. I don't see a difference. I would be willing to bet the 2 are IDENTICAL except the A model has the piezo actually wired.
If you want to be absolutely positive, use the 2WT-B (without sounder) only.
System Sensor does not publish the "full" spec. I have it because I was doing compatability testing of the 2WTA-B with several Napco panels that were already Listed by UL as compatible with the 2WT-B. There were differences and we had to limit wire length, capacitance on the zone, and number of detectors on some panels unless we added a aux power supply.
You also have to make sure there are no heat detectors or pull stations (not likely in a residence) on the same zone as it will short out the power if it trips.
PaulD
Active Member
Steve... If you do use a 2WTA-B in lieu of the HAI approved 2WT-B and wire it per HAI installation diagram, I do not think any 2WTA-B sounder will sound off because it needs power for the sounder and the only way to get that power is via a reversing module. The Omni does not provide that power to the loop in the 2 wire setup.
If you only need the detector function and intend to drive alarm sounds via other method, the solution is to use the 2WT-B per HAI guidance.
If you need sounders in the smokes, I think you have 2 options:
1) Use the RRS MOD per earlier discussion....at your own risk. I am sure HAI has been watching this thread with interest but has been silent because they do not have a UL approved solution and their lawyers have told them to sit tight and stay quite.
2) Use my approach - install 2WTA-B units (as I have) and drive them via a totally seperate control panel. In my case, I drive my smokes via a bottom end DSC panel which is designed to use 2WTA-B units and drive the sounders. To monitor it, the DSC board is able to output a signal to drive a relay. My OPII can monitor that relay output to know when the smokes have been triggered. Not what I prefer to do but it is what I had to do without a 4 wire setup.
Steve
Senior Member
You could be right but it doesn't make sense to me. My understanding is that the reversing relay just 'reverses' the voltage/polarity which will make all the sounders go off and in sync. It is possible the tripped one doesn't go of either, I don't know for sure but I am going to try it tomorrow. Worst case though, even if there was a 2wta-b with no relays or anything, the sounder would simply not go off and it would behave like a 2wt-b? And in this case where the OP just may use external piezos, it really doesn't matter. Sure, I would suggest if buying from scratch and no intent to use internal sounders, just get the 2wt-b, but if they already have several with the sounders, I don't see an issue in using them disregarding the sounder. I am in that same boat myself - I have several 2wta-b hooked up to an M1 and I am adding several more 2wt-b (without sounder) to the loop. I know you should not mix detector types/brands but all i3 models should be fine I think. I don't care about the sounders either as I will be using piezo screamers also.
I wasn't going to get to this for a few weeks yet as I still have alot to do, but I got my Omni panel at the point where I can fire it up so I may just try this in the next few days to see what happens. My house (don't know about the OP) still has the 120V detectors so I really don't care about code/UL etc, just what works.
premiernic
Member
System Sensor's website has a really cool area. You select the panel which you are using, and it shows you the UL LISTED COMPATABLE SMOKES for that panel. 2wta-b ARE UL LISTED COMPATIBLE WITH OP2
I just looked again and I dont see that
UL® 2-wire Compatibility
System Sensor's product 2-wire compatibility listings are available here for you to view and print out online. To view this information, simply choose a manufacturer and the appropriate model. You'll never be more than a mouse click away from the information you need to make informed decisions about our products and their capabilities.
Manufacturer: Home Automation, Inc. (HAI) Model: Omni II, Omni Pro II Detector Model Base Model Max Detectors Zone Model Style EOL Zone ID
2W-B N/A 10 Omni II, Omni Pro II B 1503A0011 A
2WT-B N/A 10 Omni II, Omni Pro II B 1503A0011 A
D2 N/A 20 MMX-2, FZM-1, XP6-MA, NZM-100, NZM-100-6 B, D 3.9K, N/A A
** NOTE: DH100LP and DH100P are obsolete and have been replaced by the D2 model. See chart above for detail information.
* CAUTION: 2-wire i3 Series smoke detectors must not be installed with this module in a Style D (also called Class A) circuit, even if used with the 2W-MOD2 maintenance module.
The 2WTA-B is NOT in the list. The 2WT-B is not the same detector.
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