Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[TonyStewart]

beez, sounds like on all aux you did not run a wire back to the relay/dimmer gang that it 3 ways? It will work running it all back to a hub, but more of a pain. always easiet and best, imo, to run the aux directly back to the switch you want to control.

Well, running from an aux location directly to the powered switch wouldn't have saved MUCH pain. Hehe...there was plenty enough pain to go around anyway. But since I was running a cat5 to every switch anyway (pretty much every 3 way shares a gangbox with something else), it seemed redundant to me to also run another line from switch to switch. I figured that since the powered switches only use 2 conductors anyway, that means I'd have 3 more pair to play with, so I could just take the aux switch, and tie it in down in the wiring room to the other line, and run it back up to the powered switch.

And again....I couldn't at that time figure out which was going to be an aux and which was powered, so I didn't want to have to deal with it...I had way too much to deal with at the time.

As long as it works, I don't mind some extra pain or time involved....just throw it on the pile.

Ranger's point is a strong one. I STRONGLY suggest you go back and run the black wires everywhere you need a "Traveler". Without this, your home is now wired in a PROPRIETARY fashion and your lighting could never be replaced with conventional wiring. I can give you a long list of phone numbers of SMARTHOUSE (and other brands) owners who hate the wiring strategy that their home must always use automated lighting and it is making their home harder to sell!

If you want to compromise, then keep all hallways and stairwells wired conventionally (using high voltage travellers) and reduce the number of 3-ways (auxs) that are for locations 3-way control of yard lights etc.

Hope this didn't take you by surprise, it was discussed a while back but this thread is a real long one.

TS

 

[stoked]

I assume ALC doesn't have issues with CFL like the non hardwired solutions?

 

[beelzerob]

Hope this didn't take you by surprise, it was discussed a while back but this thread is a real long one.

TS

Heh...indeed it was, and I listened well!

Sorry for the confusion....all the HV lines for switches and lights are standard and conventional. I was only referring to the Cat5 runs, as far as homerunning all those. I didn't make any changes to the electricians wiring plan, in order to accomodate future lighting control. That's one of the things I like about OnQ so much...it replaces normal wired switches.

 

[TonyStewart]

Hope this didn't take you by surprise, it was discussed a while back but this thread is a real long one.

TS

Heh...indeed it was, and I listened well!

Sorry for the confusion....all the HV lines for switches and lights are standard and conventional. I was only referring to the Cat5 runs, as far as homerunning all those. I didn't make any changes to the electricians wiring plan, in order to accomodate future lighting control. That's one of the things I like about OnQ so much...it replaces normal wired switches.

Very Wise you are! I had a panic attack when I thought you left off the traveler wires!

 

[TonyStewart]

I assume ALC doesn't have issues with CFL like the non hardwired solutions?

What is CFL?

 

[Ranger Digital]

compact fluorescent?

 

[TonyStewart]

compact fluorescent?

See earlier posts, but EVERY automated dimmer manufacturer is having issues. Relays are not as bad, but dimmers allow the CFL to have a faint glow when off!

TS

 

[Ranger Digital]

20, I am guessing thats what he means by CFL. And your points are valid.

 

[AceCannon]

I am in the design phase of my home automation system (new construction, 4000sf house).

For lighting, I had initially planned on Insteon, but hardwired seems more attractive from a reliability standpoint. I have not ruled out spending the extra money for hardwired, but I met yesterday with a company that installs Lutron - it seems too expensive for my plans.

I've read this entire thread and am intrigued by the OnQ hardware. . Does anyone have thoughts on the lack of backlighting for the scene switches? Even the Insteon "Keypadlic" has backlighting. The OnQ scene switch appears to have an LED at the very top. The Aux switches presumably do not have even this since they are simply dry contacts.

 

[TonyStewart]

I am in the design phase of my home automation system (new construction, 4000sf house).

For lighting, I had initially planned on Insteon, but hardwired seems more attractive from a reliability standpoint. I have not ruled out spending the extra money for hardwired, but I met yesterday with a company that installs Lutron - it seems too expensive for my plans.

I've read this entire thread and am intrigued by the OnQ hardware. . Does anyone have thoughts on the lack of backlighting for the scene switches? Even the Insteon "Keypadlic" has backlighting. The OnQ scene switch appears to have an LED at the very top. The Aux switches presumably do not have even this since they are simply dry contacts.

For now the backlighting is not available. But you still have a couple of other options.

Wire for scene switches and hope that OnQ has something on the horizon?????? Or use a scene switch from another supplier and integrate it into the contol scheme

TS

 

[heffneil]

Guys,

I can appreciate doing things right from the start but I just recently started using UPB. I like it a lot and can't complain about it at all. Upstart isn't the best program in the world but I think that is just because it is very new to me. Anyway what are the reliability issues people see with UPB that you would go to the huge expense of running all this wire and whatnot with a hardwire system? I haven't had any issues (that I am aware of) and by no means is my home very large but I have about a dozen switches that perform very well with little to no latency. If there is any it isn't worth the added expense of a hardwired system.

Just curious,

Neil

 

[beelzerob]

Anyway what are the reliability issues people see with UPB that you would go to the huge expense of running all this wire and whatnot with a hardwire system? I haven't had any issues (that I am aware of) and by no means is my home very large but I have about a dozen switches that perform very well with little to no latency. If there is any it isn't worth the added expense of a hardwired system.

I just want to point out, by the way...I was able to wire for all my lighting switches in my 2 story 3300 sq ft house with a single 1000 ft box of Cat5e, which was $75. So, the wire itself was trivial. If you're talking the cost of someone else doing it, or the cost of retrofitting (mine is new construction), then that probably enters the range of huge expense...

 

[TonyStewart]

Anyway what are the reliability issues people see with UPB that you would go to the huge expense of running all this wire and whatnot with a hardwire system? I haven't had any issues (that I am aware of) and by no means is my home very large but I have about a dozen switches that perform very well with little to no latency. If there is any it isn't worth the added expense of a hardwired system.

I just want to point out, by the way...I was able to wire for all my lighting switches in my 2 story 3300 sq ft house with a single 1000 ft box of Cat5e, which was $75. So, the wire itself was trivial. If you're talking the cost of someone else doing it, or the cost of retrofitting (mine is new construction), then that probably enters the range of huge expense...

I am a fan of UPB for sure. Of the "no new wires" technologies, it is my pick. But there are a number of things than interfere with it's signals. The safe bet is to hard wire every time. HArd wire is 100% dependable and UPB is something less than than that! If you are comparing price, then UPB and ALC is pretty darn close (material wise).

We are filming a new PCS Pulseworx course soon with SCott Kladowski of PCS. It will be available on DVD in a few weeks. Part of this course will be on our site for free.

The new PCS Gen II has a "buy back" offer when a professional installer (who has completed one of our courses or the same course from PCS) installs it. Gen II is the same price as ALC but PCS is pretty sure it will work 98% of the time.

Plan UPB for existing homes and ALC for new and you can't go wrong!

TS

 

[felixrosbergen]

Hi All,

I just wanted to thanks all the controbutors to this thread and ofcouse Number20 and Range in particular.

This has been extremely informing and convinced me that ALC is the way to go and and when I build the new house.

My plan is to have the electrician put a LV exteansion bracket on all (or most) switch solutions and have have them home-run at least 1 cat5 to that location and 2 cat5 in case i envision other functions there (touchscreen or audio control).

Can the sheetrockers simply cut the holes for the HV gang boxes and leave the LV bracket covered? The idea is that the Cat5e at the LV bracket would not bother the inspector and i should be able to fish it out and use the 'on top' wiring mether number20 described for the ALC lighting. IF i want to add a scene switch, audio control, or whater i could always cut away the drywall and uncover the LV extension bracket to allow mounting of whatever i want there (except HV ofcourse).

The ALC configuration would be:
- Everything home runned, if aux switches are used connections are made in the wiring closet
- Use hub (or enhance bus)
- Use an ALC controller (for scene switches)
- Use an interface to Elk/CQC

Does this sounds like a good plan? Is it practical with the sheetrockers?

I guess worst case the sheetrockers cut the home big enough for the LV box as well which would then have to be covered with the wallplate and 'blank' insert.

Can the ALC system connect to both Elk and CQC at the same time (e.g. two serial interfaces)?

What provided power to the 'polling loop'? The controller?

 

[TonyStewart]

Hi All,

I just wanted to thanks all the controbutors to this thread and ofcouse Number20 and Range in particular.

This has been extremely informing and convinced me that ALC is the way to go and and when I build the new house.

My plan is to have the electrician put a LV exteansion bracket on all (or most) switch solutions and have have them home-run at least 1 cat5 to that location and 2 cat5 in case i envision other functions there (touchscreen or audio control).

Can the sheetrockers simply cut the holes for the HV gang boxes and leave the LV bracket covered? The idea is that the Cat5e at the LV bracket would not bother the inspector and i should be able to fish it out and use the 'on top' wiring mether number20 described for the ALC lighting. IF i want to add a scene switch, audio control, or whater i could always cut away the drywall and uncover the LV extension bracket to allow mounting of whatever i want there (except HV ofcourse).

The ALC configuration would be:
- Everything home runned, if aux switches are used connections are made in the wiring closet
- Use hub (or enhance bus)
- Use an ALC controller (for scene switches)
- Use an interface to Elk/CQC

Does this sounds like a good plan? Is it practical with the sheetrockers?

I guess worst case the sheetrockers cut the home big enough for the LV box as well which would then have to be covered with the wallplate and 'blank' insert.

Can the ALC system connect to both Elk and CQC at the same time (e.g. two serial interfaces)?

What provided power to the 'polling loop'? The controller?

There are of course a number of ways to "Prewire". And the best way is the way that you feel the most comfortable with. The extra box is a bit overkill. The inspector certainly can cause you grief (regardless of what the code book says) and of course it's best to avoid that. But the extra LV box will be noticed on his first (Rough in) inspection and he/she may raise an eyebrow. However the concept of what you propose is sound and will work. Congratulations on the idea.

I myself suggest that using a G&K (brand name at Lowes) clip that adheres to the top of the HV box and holds the cat5 works quite well.

Be certain to never start a fight with an inspector. However you can ask them to get a ruling from the NEC (the overall higher jurisdiction) and they must do so. This adds delay as the NEC must issue a letter to them and you. This is a LAST RESORT tool to use - AVOID THIS AT ALL COSTS! The place where mixing high and low voltage in the same box in the NEC is in article 725 pargrah A54 exception 13 (exception 13 may now be gone as this is no longer listed as an exception). Again - only use this point if and when the inspectors stops you from using cat5 in any method.

With the right cale insulation rating (most cat5 cable are OK) and with a little seperation between the wires (1/4") you can mix the two. But what I propose is to route the LV onto the top of the box where the inspector has no problem (unless they are jerks). is the best and easiest plan.

Now for more specific answers.

Yes you can hide a low voltage box behind drywall if you choose to do so for a scene switch or for connections. I would not, but it can be done.

You will not need both a lighting controller and an M1 Lighting interface with ALC. They are combined into the same product. As for CQC I have little to share.
Good luck

TS