Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[felixrosbergen]

Assuming all wires (including Aux) are run to the location of the enhanced hub, are these statements true:

1) When connecting switches in a 3 way setup, only one hub termination point is used.
2) when connecting switches in a 5 way setup, two termination points are used.
3) One must determine where the load enters the circuit in order to identify the master switch.
4) 3 conductor wires from the AUX switch must be run back to the enhanced hub where the master communication wires will terminate, even if this is on a different floor.
5) Scene switches require only 2 wires, Tx+ and Tx-.

As an aside, where would a scene switch be used in place of a standard switch? Or would a scene switch be more appropriately installed in addition to other switches?


btw here's how I ran my CAT5e to the switch location. I can provide a closeup if anyone wants to see the clips I used.

thx

CB

For 1) and 2) , note that note all hub termination points are the same. Some (most) are intended for 3way and 1 per hub for 4/5 way.
3) Not sure if this is really the case, see my post above to beelzerob.
4) In some cases it might be easier to just run the 3 conductors for the aux from the aux to the master switch rather than running 3 conductors from the aux to the hub and there connecting them to the 3 conductors from the master switch. Your method would be a cleaner install, but potentially a lot more wire. Master switches have 5 LV wires (2 for communication and 3 for aux control).
5) and HV wires. I didn't realize this in the beginning. The scene switch use HV as well.

Regarding the picture it seems sensible. For a 5 gang however you have theoretical potential to be needing 1 x 2 conductors for communication and 5 x 3 conductors for AUX control. This makes a total of 17 which exceed the 16 conductors provided by the 2 cat5's. However from what i understand you can combined the COMMON wires for the different auxes so that woudl solve that issue. TONY PLEASE CONFIRM.

Are you sure you can get switch over plates for 5 gangs? Also i noticed the boxes are metal...it's ofcourse way to late in your case, but for other readers the use of metal boxes could prevent you from using insteon or other RF based lighting technology should you decide not to do ALC or something happens and ALC is no longer viable.

I have quite a few 4 gang boxes (plastic) in my house and we have trouble keeping them level. With the pressue of the wires the tender to 'droop' a bit and the builder had to go back and adjust them all after the sheetrock was up and i found them not acceptable. Maybe the metal actually prevent that...

Also the builder left the house with all toggle switches. I asked them to do all decora, but that was $600 extra so i passed. What happens now is that when you don't 'upgrade' all switches in the same box at the same time you will have a hard time finding cover planes with the right toggle/decora combination. The solution is one of 4: A) Start of with a full ALC install (pricey) :lol: Use all decora from the start (probably the smart thing to do 3) upgrade all switches int he same box at the same time (this is what i plan to do 4) get a few non automated decora switches (cheap) and swap the toggles you are not upgrading for decora when you upgrade 1 or more switches in the box (labour intensive).

 

[felixrosbergen]

The versions that have an LED (which is Green) are the part number 36314x-2x. The ones that do not have an LED are part number 36314x-1x. X is the color of the paddle.

I am confused by 363143-11 http://www.setnetpro.com/product.asp?3=1972
It looks like a real switch, not an aux (3-way) switch, but states "Does not connect directly to the 120VAC load or system controller. ". Is that a typo? What do you do with it or what do you connect it to?

I noticed the same and think it's an error on setnet's site. The price and part number seem to match that of a 600w dimmer rather than an aux.

 

[felixrosbergen]

The text book answer is that the temps in your attic PROHIBIT you from installing any electronics there. Here is the situation to consider.... How hot/cold do you get in your area? Is there a place in your attic that has better ventilation than another? The electronics do not run hot, but excess temp will certainly cause them to run hot. When electronics runs hot, it ages.

As far as mounting into a SW panel, try Elk Double Sided tape. Part number Elk-999


God Bless
TS

I guess I'll run the cables in attic and put 2 double gang LV rings into the master bedroom closet, then i can drop some 3/4" conduit from the attic. From what i understand the hubs will go inside a double gang LV ring (presumable a double gang HV box woudl also work) and can then be fully covered with a regular 2 gang blank cover plate?

I'm sure the wife will tolerance 1 or 2 2 gang cover plates in the closet versus a 14x14 cabinet. This also means i can put the terminations and any future trouble shooting in a more convenient location rather than up in the attic.

The last question is if the ELK<> ALC inteface modules and the expansion modules fit without adapters into structured wiring cabinets (Leviton)? You previously mentioned the hubs do not and your suggested to use double sided tape. The modules appear howerver to be made for structured wiring solutions (not sure if OnQ's cabinets have the same hole patterns as a Leviton).

 

[rbroders]

btw here's how I ran my CAT5e to the switch location. I can provide a closeup if anyone wants to see the clips I used.

Great picture Charlie, please send more. I don't suppose you have rock up anywhere yet?

Thanks -- Bob

 

[TonyStewart]

Those of you writing drivers for CQC or other devices can control the LED indicators as you desire. With the developers kit you can basically make the LED do anything you desire. However with the ELk and HAI controllers, it is not controllable from program flow.

TS

Oooh ya, I do seem to remember some protocol commands for those. Does every switch have an LED? I think I've seen some on mine, but it's not a prominent light by any stretch..it's tucked in behind the switch itself, it seems.

All this talk of this stuff is really getting me to want to try and get mine installed.

Can someone point me to a guide for how to figure out 3-way wiring? That's the only thing stopping me. If I can figure that out, I could get the front and garage lights installed.

The 36314X-1x does have an LED but you are right, it is hidden behind the paddle and all but invisibile. However, the 36314X-2X has a green LED at the top of the paddle's bezel which is typical size and brightness. I just noticed that I don't have the 36314X-2X on our site and will correct that soon. They are the same price as the 36314x-1X though.

In our ALC Technical Docs section are several docs showing the 3-way. Take a look at the powerpoint training powerpoints. More specifically see the 2008 ALC_Wiring, page 9. And the On-Q Home Lighting Applications powerpoint page 31. There are also a number of PDF's as well.

 

[TonyStewart]

The text book answer is that the temps in your attic PROHIBIT you from installing any electronics there. Here is the situation to consider.... How hot/cold do you get in your area? Is there a place in your attic that has better ventilation than another? The electronics do not run hot, but excess temp will certainly cause them to run hot. When electronics runs hot, it ages.

As far as mounting into a SW panel, try Elk Double Sided tape. Part number Elk-999


God Bless
TS

I guess I'll run the cables in attic and put 2 double gang LV rings into the master bedroom closet, then i can drop some 3/4" conduit from the attic. From what i understand the hubs will go inside a double gang LV ring (presumable a double gang HV box woudl also work) and can then be fully covered with a regular 2 gang blank cover plate?

I'm sure the wife will tolerance 1 or 2 2 gang cover plates in the closet versus a 14x14 cabinet. This also means i can put the terminations and any future trouble shooting in a more convenient location rather than up in the attic.

The last question is if the ELK<> ALC inteface modules and the expansion modules fit without adapters into structured wiring cabinets (Leviton)? You previously mentioned the hubs do not and your suggested to use double sided tape. The modules appear howerver to be made for structured wiring solutions (not sure if OnQ's cabinets have the same hole patterns as a Leviton).

I mispoke myself about the double sided tape and the hubs. You must be able to get to the back and front of the enhanced hubs, so strike the double sided tape idea. All the other controllers and related periphs are designed for any SW box with 6" centers.

TS

 

[beelzerob]

In our ALC Technical Docs section are several docs showing the 3-way. Take a look at the powerpoint training powerpoints. More specifically see the 2008 ALC_Wiring, page 9. And the On-Q Home Lighting Applications powerpoint page 31. There are also a number of PDF's as well.

Great, that document is helpful (though a little hard to view). Is there some surefire way to know which switch has the power coming to it and which switch is connected to the bulb? (wish I'd noted that before the walls were covered....)

 

[felixrosbergen]

In our ALC Technical Docs section are several docs showing the 3-way. Take a look at the powerpoint training powerpoints. More specifically see the 2008 ALC_Wiring, page 9. And the On-Q Home Lighting Applications powerpoint page 31. There are also a number of PDF's as well.

Great, that document is helpful (though a little hard to view). Is there some surefire way to know which switch has the power coming to it and which switch is connected to the bulb? (wish I'd noted that before the walls were covered....)

For a 3-way configuration you will have 2 switches. As i said before i don't think it really matter, but if you want to know then disconnect the hots and traveller from both switches and measure which black wire is still hot, that will be you incoming side.

Page 8 of this great thread shows the schematic.

 

[TonyStewart]

In our ALC Technical Docs section are several docs showing the 3-way. Take a look at the powerpoint training powerpoints. More specifically see the 2008 ALC_Wiring, page 9. And the On-Q Home Lighting Applications powerpoint page 31. There are also a number of PDF's as well.

Great, that document is helpful (though a little hard to view). Is there some surefire way to know which switch has the power coming to it and which switch is connected to the bulb? (wish I'd noted that before the walls were covered....)

For a 3-way configuration you will have 2 switches. As i said before i don't think it really matter, but if you want to know then disconnect the hots and traveller from both switches and measure which black wire is still hot, that will be you incoming side.

Page 8 of this great thread shows the schematic.

Let me take us all back to basics for a moment....

Take the example of a hallway or stairwell. One ALC relay and one ALC aux.

I promote letting the electrician run the HV wires normally. In the case of 3-ways this should also be true.

Assuming this is so and starting with HV wiring first, one end of the hall/stairwell is fed from the AC breaker. Then HV wires called "travelers" go to the switch box at the other end of the hall/stairwell where the other HV switch is located. From this end the HV 3-way is wired to the lighting load.

To replace this with ALC --- From the AC breaker side wire an ALC relay as a one way using the "travelers" to connect to the ALC relay's HV blue wire (for load) and also connect the neutral/ground. On the other end of the hall/stairway wire nut the HV directly to the lighting load and do not connect the HV wires in any way to an aux - YOU CAN'T ANYWAY (in effect you have just made a 3-way HV wiring run into a one way switch ALC load).

Next connect the cat5 to the aux inputs on the ALC relay and to the aux connectors on the ALC aux itself. Of course if a hub is used you can connect the aux wires there instead.

I mentioned Halls and stairwells first because they should always be wired conventionally. This is for safety sake. However, if you would like to reduce HV wire pulls to locations like a 3-way in the Master Bedroom for the back yard lights, then wire the Yard lights as a standard one way and use a scene switch or an aux for the bedroom (the Electrician will love this idea). There is also a quad aux that let's you do 4 total auxs in a single gang box.

I like using aux or quad auxs more than scene switches because scene switches require local scene programming or a controller. While an Aux/Quad Aux will work forever!

While I promote being able to always go back to conventional AC wiring. This hybrid approach is a good way to add multiple locations for 3 or 4 way control of one way loads. And cat 5 is much cheaper than HV romex cable. In my example, the aux in the bedroom would still control the HV load for the yard lights as long as you leave ALC installed. However if you remove ALC, the next homeowner would have to walk to the HV yard light switch to control it. No real loss!

Don't overlook the quad auxes, most people do.... And to test where HV is in a box, get a "Widow Maker" stick from Lowes. Place it against a switch and will will light and/or beep when HV is present. But an AC voltmeter is the best bet.

Hope this helps.
God Bless
TS

 

[sic0048]

I know this information is out there somewhere, but forgive me because I'm just going to ask the question without spending a lot of time looking for the answer.

The quad aux switch requires a single gang box because the face plate is unique, correct? In other words, this is the switch that cannot be placed in a multi gang box? What about the other 4 button scene switch? Can this switch be placed in a multigang box?

Thanks,

 

[TonyStewart]

I know this information is out there somewhere, but forgive me because I'm just going to ask the question without spending a lot of time looking for the answer.

The quad aux switch requires a single gang box because the face plate is unique, correct? In other words, this is the switch that cannot be placed in a multi gang box? What about the other 4 button scene switch? Can this switch be placed in a multigang box?

Thanks,

Good Question.
Quad Aux installs into a single gang box (which can be a low voltage box as it requires no power) and can only be installed by itself, and not in multi gang boxes.

The Scene switch can be installed with other decora style devices or light switches.

TS

 

[TonyStewart]

I know this information is out there somewhere, but forgive me because I'm just going to ask the question without spending a lot of time looking for the answer.

The quad aux switch requires a single gang box because the face plate is unique, correct? In other words, this is the switch that cannot be placed in a multi gang box? What about the other 4 button scene switch? Can this switch be placed in a multigang box?

Thanks,

Good Question.
Quad Aux installs into a single gang box (which can be a low voltage box as it requires no power) and can only be installed by itself, and not in multi gang boxes.

The Scene switch can be installed with other decora style devices or light switches.

TS

WHAT ABOUT THIS IDEA!

Until I can create the docs/training modules I spoke of, does anybody see the worth of me doing a combination real time web seminar where I pump our classroom video to the web and some of you call in on a conference call to ask questions. The cost of the conference call is about $15 per hour.

If there is enough interest I can pull that off pretty fast.

Let me know

TS

 

[electron]

Could always host a chat session on the CT server, this way, everyone can learn from it once the the transcript has been posted. We used to invite manufacturers, etc. every Friday around 8-9pm EST, but it can be any day/time.

 

[charliebarns]

I'd be up for that!

CB

 

[TonyStewart]

Could always host a chat session on the CT server, this way, everyone can learn from it once the the transcript has been posted. We used to invite manufacturers, etc. every Friday around 8-9pm EST, but it can be any day/time.

I like the idea, but admit that I am unfamiliar with it. Where can I learn more..
TS