Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[apostolakisl]

heh, and the damn electrician who ran my 3way lighting used all black wires, so i need to break out the multimeter and a long ass cable to see which is which. royal PITA.

I feel your pain IVB

Save the long-ass cable sometimes if you are sure the power is down on all the wire by connecting wires together and reading continuity on the other end - helps id the physical cable sometimes. And of course, that isn't for everyone, you must already have a good idea / assumption.

Exactly. Just shut off the power then connect one of the wires to ground. Go to the other end with your multimeter and see which of the wires is shorted to ground. You do have to make sure that the wires are all disconnected at every box that that wire might be involved with or you might get false info.

 

[broconne]

I have read in this forum how important it is for the neutral to be in the switch box and not up at the light. I was talking to my builder today and all of the fan pre-wires use 14/3 and have shared neuturals and shared grounds. Does a shared neutral present any kind of problem?

 

[Sokoloff]

Shared neutrals are actually what you want. *Absent* neutrals is what you don't want.

 

[broconne]

I was talking to AO about ALC/OnQ with HAI (I am leaning towards HAI based on the latest firmware update and its better support of temperature/humidity sensors), and they mentioned that HAI OmniPro II had a limit on the number of ALC/OnQ lights it could control. I can't seem to find a good source for that limit, does anyone know what it is?

 

[TonyStewart]

I was talking to AO about ALC/OnQ with HAI (I am leaning towards HAI based on the latest firmware update and its better support of temperature/humidity sensors), and they mentioned that HAI OmniPro II had a limit on the number of ALC/OnQ lights it could control. I can't seem to find a good source for that limit, does anyone know what it is?

Well that's kind of true....

With the latest firmware the Omni IIe or the OmniPro II can support 31 ALC addresses out of one of the on board serial ports (with a configuration change for that port using PCaccess software or from any console). The OmniLT can support 16 ALC interfaces in a similiar configuration.

But...... no built in "Scene learning" support is included when connected this way. So if you are wanting to use ALC 4 button scene switches, they (the 4-buttons) could not learn any scenes. Instead you would have to write lines of programming code for each button.

If you add the 1 branch interface OnQ # 364806-01 (still only supports 31 ALC but adds scene learning) or the 4 branch interface OnQ # 364806-02 (supports 124 total ALC with scene learning), then you can max out the system and there is no limit (outside of the capacity of the interfaces).

Note that there are equivalent HAI part numbers for these interfaces, but OnQ is the manufacturer and they are identical parts.

God Bless
TS

 

[broconne]

I was talking to AO about ALC/OnQ with HAI (I am leaning towards HAI based on the latest firmware update and its better support of temperature/humidity sensors), and they mentioned that HAI OmniPro II had a limit on the number of ALC/OnQ lights it could control. I can't seem to find a good source for that limit, does anyone know what it is?

Well that's kind of true....

With the latest firmware the Omni IIe or the OmniPro II can support 31 ALC addresses out of one of the on board serial ports (with a configuration change for that port using PCaccess software or from any console). The OmniLT can support 16 ALC interfaces in a similiar configuration.

But...... no built in "Scene learning" support is included when connected this way. So if you are wanting to use ALC 4 button scene switches, they (the 4-buttons) could not learn any scenes. Instead you would have to write lines of programming code for each button.

If you add the 1 branch interface OnQ # 364806-01 (still only supports 31 ALC but adds scene learning) or the 4 branch interface OnQ # 364806-02 (supports 124 total ALC with scene learning), then you can max out the system and there is no limit (outside of the capacity of the interfaces).

Note that there are equivalent HAI part numbers for these interfaces, but OnQ is the manufacturer and they are identical parts.

God Bless
TS

Ahh - that makes more sense. I don't mind having to buy another board as long as I am not limited to 31 devices total.

What items would be connected to the 4 branch interface OnQ # 364806-02 to get 124 devices?

 

[charliebarns]

Well that's kind of true....

But...... no built in "Scene learning" support is included when connected this way. So if you are wanting to use ALC 4 button scene switches, they (the 4-buttons) could not learn any scenes. Instead you would have to write lines of programming code for each button.

If you add the 1 branch interface ... then you can max out the system and there is no limit (outside of the capacity of the interfaces).


God Bless
TS

Hey Tony,

So does that mean with the 364806-02 scene learning is built-in without the need to write lines of code? I would assume for automation rules lines of code are still required? Using Units?

CB

 

[TonyStewart]

I was talking to AO about ALC/OnQ with HAI (I am leaning towards HAI based on the latest firmware update and its better support of temperature/humidity sensors), and they mentioned that HAI OmniPro II had a limit on the number of ALC/OnQ lights it could control. I can't seem to find a good source for that limit, does anyone know what it is?

Well that's kind of true....

With the latest firmware the Omni IIe or the OmniPro II can support 31 ALC addresses out of one of the on board serial ports (with a configuration change for that port using PCaccess software or from any console). The OmniLT can support 16 ALC interfaces in a similiar configuration.

But...... no built in "Scene learning" support is included when connected this way. So if you are wanting to use ALC 4 button scene switches, they (the 4-buttons) could not learn any scenes. Instead you would have to write lines of programming code for each button.

If you add the 1 branch interface OnQ # 364806-01 (still only supports 31 ALC but adds scene learning) or the 4 branch interface OnQ # 364806-02 (supports 124 total ALC with scene learning), then you can max out the system and there is no limit (outside of the capacity of the interfaces).

Note that there are equivalent HAI part numbers for these interfaces, but OnQ is the manufacturer and they are identical parts.

God Bless
TS

Ahh - that makes more sense. I don't mind having to buy another board as long as I am not limited to 31 devices total.

What items would be connected to the 4 branch interface OnQ # 364806-02 to get 124 devices?

No additional parts. It attaches directly to the Ribbon cable bus on the Omni and then 4 branches of 31 ALC each attaches directly to the interface (31 total for each branch). Hubs and enhanced hubs are optional.

In addition, the Omni IIE can support 2 each 364806-01 interfaces for a total of 62 ALC and the Omni Pro II can support 2 each 364806-02 interfaces for a total of 248 ALC addresses.

Here is a feature by feature comparison chart for HAI and Elk. Some of the data is old, but most is still current.

TS

 

[beelzerob]

Tony, a question has arose over installing ALC switches into what was previously a 3-way spot.

Once you've removed one switch and end up with a normal 2-way switch, you can then replace that switch with an ALC switch, right? You can test with a multimeter to see which is the "hot" side and which is the "switched" hot.

However, it was pointed out that it may be that the 3-way switch you're replacing was actually switching the neutral (unbeknownst to you). so in that scenario, your ALC switch will be placed on the neutral side of the load, instead of the hot side.

Is there a problem with doing that? Or does the ALC switch have to go on the hot side of the load?

 

[beelzerob]

Hmmm...well, I've just installed my first ALC dimmer and aux switches, and it has gone...interesting.

There's a couple issues I've run into:

1) My gang boxes are plenty deep enough. However, I failed to account for them being wide enough. For whatever reason, the gang boxes they used in my house have an indentation on one side of the box...no more than a 1/4 inch, probably. However, that is enough to thwart trying to put a dimmer and aux switch next to each other. Since the width of the ALC stuff seems to be pretty standard, I'd wager the same issue will arise, no matter what I put next to each other. So, I had to take some wire cutters and "mod" the gang box to get the indentation to not be an obstacle. This is kind of annoying, as there can't be any electrical reason for the aux switch to be as large as it is...I'm just guessing it was a cost-savings effort to use the same pieces for all switches.

2) I noticed a buzzing coming from the lights at some of the dimmer light settings. I have no idea if that's normal or expected. I can't put it down as "annoying" at all....but I did notice it. It'd be a shame if it keeps me from using some of the very low light settings for, say, moving watching once I install the dimmer for our greatroom lights.

3) Where I had removed one of the 3-way switches, I put an aux switch. It shares the box with another, normal toggle switch. However, when I went to put on the switch plate cover (one normal and one decora opening), it was warped looking. It turns out the low voltage wires that cross in front of the metal part of the switch and then exit the box above the switch were what was causing the cover to bulge slightly. I don't know if this was just a result of the type of cover plate it was, or what.

Anyway, I'm pleased that the dimmer works, and actually hooking it up to the network will be next.

 

[TonyStewart]

Hmmm...well, I've just installed my first ALC dimmer and aux switches, and it has gone...interesting.

There's a couple issues I've run into:

1) My gang boxes are plenty deep enough. However, I failed to account for them being wide enough. For whatever reason, the gang boxes they used in my house have an indentation on one side of the box...no more than a 1/4 inch, probably. However, that is enough to thwart trying to put a dimmer and aux switch next to each other. Since the width of the ALC stuff seems to be pretty standard, I'd wager the same issue will arise, no matter what I put next to each other. So, I had to take some wire cutters and "mod" the gang box to get the indentation to not be an obstacle. This is kind of annoying, as there can't be any electrical reason for the aux switch to be as large as it is...I'm just guessing it was a cost-savings effort to use the same pieces for all switches.

2) I noticed a buzzing coming from the lights at some of the dimmer light settings. I have no idea if that's normal or expected. I can't put it down as "annoying" at all....but I did notice it. It'd be a shame if it keeps me from using some of the very low light settings for, say, moving watching once I install the dimmer for our greatroom lights.

3) Where I had removed one of the 3-way switches, I put an aux switch. It shares the box with another, normal toggle switch. However, when I went to put on the switch plate cover (one normal and one decora opening), it was warped looking. It turns out the low voltage wires that cross in front of the metal part of the switch and then exit the box above the switch were what was causing the cover to bulge slightly. I don't know if this was just a result of the type of cover plate it was, or what.

Anyway, I'm pleased that the dimmer works, and actually hooking it up to the network will be next.

Don't you just love rough in boxes? Pass and Seymour has a box called the "slater series" that has worked well without any "remodeling" of the box. All 22.5 cubic inch boxes are no created the same as you now know. And yes you are right, the ALC switches are the same size as any analog dimmer. So this problem is universal and not brand specific.

I use a Dremel tool on occasion to cut away the box as needed. It is neater and faster than wire cutters. Always be alert to code issues when you start messing around with the shape of a box or enlarging/making openings.

You stated that the "light" buzzed???? Don't you mean the switch? A true incandescant bulb (resistive load) can not buzz as it has no parts that make noise. If in fact the light itself is making noise, then it is not a true incandescant. It must be a low voltage light with a step down transformer somewhere near the light (in the fixture?)...... In all my experiences I have never heard an incandescent make a noise. So it must be coming from other circuitry.

Additionally, the light switch (dimmer) would not make any noise either. Unless.... it is attached to a low voltage fixture or a motor of some sort (say a ceiling fan or other inductive load). Even if it is hooked up to a non resistive load, it's a hit or miss situation as to whether the load would cause a problem or not. I have a dimmer attached to a 1/4 HP ceiling fan that makes a little switch noise (not enough to be heard above the fan). However, this fan is one that replaced a larger 1/2 HP ceiling fan that made absolutely NO NOISE at all. In both cases the dimmer worked and did not run hot. But don't count on this everytime. Basically the safe answer is not to use a dimmer on anything other than a resistive load. And....... be sure to stay within it's wattage range.

As relates to the technology inside the ALC dimmer (the circuitry that actually does the dimming of the load), OnQ and ALL other manufacturers of UPB, Zigbee, Zwave etc. use the same technology. It's called a Triac circuit. As such the dimming issues I described are true for all brands. So changing brands will not help, however changing the light fixture or the ceiling fan can often solve the issue. The differences inside the variety of different technologies (ALC, UPB etc) comes from the communication circuitry not the load circuitry.

And of course you may already know that any kind of a dimmer on a compact flourescant load causes the CF to glow when the dimmer is off.

God Bless you and your project!

TS

 

[TonyStewart]

Tony, a question has arose over installing ALC switches into what was previously a 3-way spot.

Once you've removed one switch and end up with a normal 2-way switch, you can then replace that switch with an ALC switch, right? You can test with a multimeter to see which is the "hot" side and which is the "switched" hot.

However, it was pointed out that it may be that the 3-way switch you're replacing was actually switching the neutral (unbeknownst to you). so in that scenario, your ALC switch will be placed on the neutral side of the load, instead of the hot side.

Is there a problem with doing that? Or does the ALC switch have to go on the hot side of the load?

In the case of HV wiring, switching the neutral instead of switching the hot will certainly work. This is rare for sure. It leads to two possibilities.
1. All wires (hot, neutral and ground) are all still present in the box and can be rearrainged to make your 3-way work as a standard one way. Life is good here.
2. The neutral is present but the hot is not present at all, in which case NO automated technology would work as the switches from all technologies need power for the logic circuitry.
In situation number 2, your home is also not wired to code and I would call my contractors and discuss options at their expense. Life is ugly here!

I doubt that situation 2 exists so you are probably good to go!

TS

 

[beelzerob]

Dremel is not a bad idea, as it was a pretty rough job getting the big metal cutters in there. I'm not sure how I'd maneuver a dremel in there either though. What I really need is a baby saws-all.

Ya, I do dread having to modify all of these boxes I fill full of switches...but I guess it's either that, or rip those boxes out and put in old-work ones. Ugh. I'll suffer for now. I'm going to see if I can slide all switches over as far as possible if that'll ease the pinch on the side.

Well, SOMETHING was making a...I won't say buzzing, so much as a very high frequency hum. and only as the lights really got dim. they're definitely incandescent...your standard edison light bulb. I only say the lights were humming, as that was as good as I could try to locate the sound. It's one of those sounds that's really hard to locate. However, the switch is on the other side of a door from the lights, so I should be able to isolate it that way.

There were hots, neutrals, and grounds galore in the box. So they seemed to have done it right.

 

[TonyStewart]

Dremel is not a bad idea, as it was a pretty rough job getting the big metal cutters in there. I'm not sure how I'd maneuver a dremel in there either though. What I really need is a baby saws-all.

Ya, I do dread having to modify all of these boxes I fill full of switches...but I guess it's either that, or rip those boxes out and put in old-work ones. Ugh. I'll suffer for now. I'm going to see if I can slide all switches over as far as possible if that'll ease the pinch on the side.

Well, SOMETHING was making a...I won't say buzzing, so much as a very high frequency hum. and only as the lights really got dim. they're definitely incandescent...your standard edison light bulb. I only say the lights were humming, as that was as good as I could try to locate the sound. It's one of those sounds that's really hard to locate. However, the switch is on the other side of a door from the lights, so I should be able to isolate it that way.

There were hots, neutrals, and grounds galore in the box. So they seemed to have done it right.

Dremel has an attachement that will work as a "saws all"

TS

 

[beelzerob]

Ahhh, good. I was going to Lowes anyway today, but my shopping list felt a little thin.